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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50227: Jan 7th 2016 at 11:35:52 AM

[tup] Maugrim. Seems a bit of Stupid Evil though: If he hadn't've raped Jenifer, he wouldn't've had a son.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#50228: Jan 7th 2016 at 11:37:16 AM

Easy [tup] to Maugrim

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#50229: Jan 7th 2016 at 11:38:40 AM

[up][up] Hence why he intended to have her killed after. He didn't expect her to be magically saved in the heart of his home base.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#50230: Jan 7th 2016 at 11:43:47 AM

Maugrim gets a [tup]. What else can you be when your the bastard son of Morgoth and Randall Flagg ?

edited 7th Jan '16 11:45:54 AM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50231: Jan 7th 2016 at 11:44:38 AM

[up][up] Still...why take the chance (boy, I am really overthinking it [lol])? How many years take place between the rape and the final showdown?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#50232: Jan 7th 2016 at 11:47:08 AM

I didn't really post this for the literary criticism. He did it because he's an overconfident, ridiculously evil monster who wanted to leave her a broken shell of a person before he had her abused and killed by his underling.

Only a few years. Darien ages at an accelerated rate.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#50233: Jan 7th 2016 at 11:50:56 AM

@Ravok: Honestly I think your write-up is perfect. You got it way shorter without losing any vital information. Excellent work.

@Largo Quagmire: Pretty much exactly what Nithael said. We can't add anything that Moriarity didn't intend to happen against him. We can revisit him, if he survived or planned on evil deeds being carried on in his name after his death. Personal theory is that he arranged some nastiness to be done after his death by employees. Looking at you Sebastian Moran, who may or may not exist in this universe.

@Lightysnake: Very easy yes to Maugrim.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50234: Jan 7th 2016 at 11:56:19 AM

[up][up]"I didn't really post this for the literary criticism." Yeah, hence my "Boy I am really overthinking it." Seriously though, how is the trilogy? Worth adding to my to-read list?
But yeah, he's an easy [tup]. The actual rape is bad enough, but the Mind Rape on top of it? Plus the other acts? Yeesh. BTW, is Maugrim supposed to be reminiscent of Morgoth? The names sound alike, and both seem like utterly evil bastards.

edited 7th Jan '16 11:58:05 AM by ACW

Nithael (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#50236: Jan 7th 2016 at 12:14:24 PM

Thanks Exister, that means alot.

@ACW: Should I go ahead and add the rewrite to the YMMV, or wait for your edits?

edited 7th Jan '16 12:14:55 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50237: Jan 7th 2016 at 12:22:57 PM

[up] Please add it to the YMMV; it's easier to edit from there.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#50238: Jan 7th 2016 at 12:30:29 PM

[up] Done.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#50239: Jan 7th 2016 at 12:30:32 PM

[tup] Maugrim. [tdown] Ms. Bathory

I'd still give Injurin' Joe a [tup] but then again, I'd give the same to the Tom And Huck version of Injun Joe. Both versions are alarmingly more vicious than the book character and Knight of Cerebus is in full effect with them in contrast to their films' default tones.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#50240: Jan 7th 2016 at 12:35:52 PM

[tup] to Maugrim.

As for Injurin' Joe, I'd vote to cut as well. I was actually recently wondering if he counted or not.

Also (and I've been thinking of this for some time), I do think there should be some standards when it comes to kids shows and films. I'd always felt that villains were easier to qualify in kids media due to the lower heinous standard. So, a villain doing something in a kids film would be seen as worse than if he had done it in a more mature film, such as murder.

I think that gap should be closed a little bit. While the heinous standard is still lower in a kids film, there's still a standard. Killing one person and a few other choice actions wouldn't usually count in, say, a PG-13 to R-Rated film, so it shouldn't be enough to qualify you in a kids film, unless that murder was very brutal, of course. If the character wouldn't have ANY chance of qualifying in a media aimed at older audiences, they shouldn't necessarily count in one aimed at younger audiences. Simply being a slightly darker-than-average villain and doing something most kids villains don't do, like murder, doesn't equal Complete Monster.

edited 7th Jan '16 4:07:49 PM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#50244: Jan 7th 2016 at 12:50:27 PM

[tup] to Jim Beckett and Rakoth Maugrim. [tdown] To Ms. Bathory; she seems like more of a history joke than a serious villain.

@Ravok, your write-ups are all awesome. You have a real talent there.

@Lightysnake, is that effortpost for Connery/Lazenby era Blofeld forthcoming? I'm interested in reading it and seeing how people respond.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#50245: Jan 7th 2016 at 1:00:21 PM

[up] Thanks!

Don't think it's necessary at this point, but [tdown] to Mrs. Bathory.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#50246: Jan 7th 2016 at 1:04:50 PM

Thanks Ravok. I'll hopefully work on that tomorrow and submit the rewrites Saturday or Sunday. I got one more for you if you're up to it: Book!Gregor It won't be easy 

edited 7th Jan '16 1:04:57 PM by ACW

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#50247: Jan 7th 2016 at 1:06:55 PM

On Gregor, I'd suggest that quote at the end be cut out.

Why so serious?
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#50249: Jan 7th 2016 at 1:12:35 PM

The other two I get since they have to share a page with different works but since Gregor's entry is already on a separate subpage, why bother trimming it? It's not that long.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#50250: Jan 7th 2016 at 1:13:18 PM

I actually don't keep up with Game of Thrones or ASOIAF (Yeah, yeah, let the hate flow), so I doubt I'm really the best one to try to re-write it, unless you really want me to.

Though, what [up] said is also something to consider.

edited 7th Jan '16 1:13:44 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!

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