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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#49776: Jan 1st 2016 at 6:32:16 AM

[tup] To Black Hiver

For Force Awakens I would be wary of discussing Snoke and Kylo at the moment. Both has potential, but their arcs aren't over and we have to factor in the heinousness standard for the entire new canon(which at the moment, only Hux does the most to reach). Not to mention Snoke shows a degree of genuine concern for his underlings at the moment(we'll see if it was Pragmatic Villainy instead in future installments) and Kylo is described as conflicted and he claims to feel the Light reaching out to him. And I still remember when we tried to put Sasuke on this trope years ago. Still we'll see the effortposts as they come.

edited 1st Jan '16 6:35:11 AM by xie323

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#49777: Jan 1st 2016 at 6:34:30 AM

ACW, it is Friday, what about a batch that will be submitted on Monday?

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#49779: Jan 1st 2016 at 7:11:18 AM

Gonna echo Satoshi Bakura, I think Hux is the only one that could count. I mean his actions are more than enough. "Hasn't done anything other than destroying several planets" (was said here)? What, is multi-planetary genocide not more than enough?^^ The only thing disqualifiying him could be that he didn't have THAT much characterization in the film.

One way or the other, he sets a really high new heinous standart. Luckily Tarkin has done more than enough besides Alderaan's destruction, otherwise we'd be inclined to cut him now.

edited 1st Jan '16 7:11:51 AM by Forenperser

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#49780: Jan 1st 2016 at 7:41:40 AM

Hey, this is page 1992, the year I was born!

[tup] to Tienbo and Black Abdullah.

As far as The Force Awakens goes, there's one very big issue with proposing any of the villains: none of their arcs are closed yet, as they're all still alive and confirmed to return in Episode VIII. Even so, they each have issues that would keep them off the CM list:

  • Snoke: Does virtually nothing other than looking and sounding intimidating. On top of that, we know next to nothing about him, fan theories aside. He's definitely worth watching, though.
  • Kylo Ren: Conflicted, bordering on Anti-Villain, and I have serious doubts about his moral agency (some of his dialogue, especially with regards to Snoke, reeks of cult-like brainwashing to me). As far as his Moral Event Horizon goes... well, this is the franchise that redeemed Darth Vader (something that was once pointed out to me when I questioned whether Barriss Offee was irredeemable), so he's in a really vague area, morally.
  • Hux: Comes the closest, but using Starkiller Base once and trying to do it again is just what Tarkin did in A New Hope taken Up To Eleven, except there, Tarkin also had Leia tortured and ordered her execution on top of that. On the other hand, Hux is the one who suggested destroying the Hosnian system, while Snoke approved it. That's a distinction that's worth remembering.
  • Phasma: Doesn't do much except look and act cool, and we barely know anything about her (an issue with Snoke, as well). She's more likely to end up as a Boba Fett style character.

And that's all I have to say until I edit this post or put up another. Happy New Year, folks.

edited 1st Jan '16 7:54:34 AM by DeCarta

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#49781: Jan 1st 2016 at 7:57:56 AM

You mean the fan theory that Snoke is actually http://tinyurl.com/huoowsa? I tinyurl'd it to prevent spoilers.

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#49782: Jan 1st 2016 at 8:07:06 AM

Well committing my vote to full [tup] to Hux since he suggested using Starkiller on the Honsian system. Yes it's the same thing Tarkin did over and over again but it really stands out regardless when you consider that 5 planets were destroyed.

@49792

And even if Kylo Ren dosen't get redeemed we also have to consider that a lot of franchises have sympathetic villains that don't get redeemed either because they cross the MEH or no one bothers, but don't turn into this trope. But it should not be overlooked that unless the villain is totally irredeemably evil, even darksiders in SW whom failed to redeem themselves get an Heel Realization and Alas, Poor Villain moment that makes you feel bad for them(Malak from KOTOR as well as Traya from its sequel both come to mind), and this could be likely for Kylo Ren even if he dosen't redeem himself.

edited 1st Jan '16 8:11:32 AM by xie323

lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
#49783: Jan 1st 2016 at 8:10:07 AM

My votes on the Force Awakens:

  • NO on Kylo Ren because he's shown to be morally conflicted, even after he crosses the Moral Event Horizon at the end of the movie.
  • NO on Snoke because we basically know jack shit about him.
  • NO on Phasma because she doesn't really do anything in this film beyond carrying out Kylo's orders to massacre a village, which doesn't really cross Star Wars' heinous standard.
  • YES on Hux for gleefully using Starkiller Base. His arc's not over yet, but I think for movies that are released years apart, this shouldn't be much of an issue. If Episodes 8 or 9 disqualify him, we can just remove him later.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#49784: Jan 1st 2016 at 8:12:34 AM

I feel that Hux could be a contender, but Snoke also seems to have potential; personally, I don't believe in the fan theory that states that Snoke was Darth Plagueis after death, though they do look eerily similar to each other. I'll have to agree with Scraggle in that it seems to early to make decisions on the antagonists, because they're all slated to return in the sequels, but I do think that Hux and Snoke should be on a "wait and see" list of sorts. For what it's worth, I think that Hux seems to so far be a unanimous qualifier, mostly when you take in the multi-planetary genocide into account.

[tup]Black Abdullah, Tienbo, and a tedious [tup]Black Hiver.

edited 1st Jan '16 8:15:14 AM by AustinDR

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#49785: Jan 1st 2016 at 8:19:26 AM

My opinions on Star Wars villains are

Kylo Ren - is pretty heinous but struggles with his evil. We will see what the sequels will show us.

Phasma - definitely no

Snoke - worth to keep an eye on.

Hux - the only potential candidate, though I abstain for now because his arc is not over. I feel… he just doesn't have enough screentime yet, but he is most certainly the best potential candidate and worth to keep and eye on.

And [tdown] Black Hiver because I don't think youtube poops can have C Ms.

edited 1st Jan '16 8:22:27 AM by emperors

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#49786: Jan 1st 2016 at 8:21:19 AM

I don't think anybody from The Force Awakens counts as of yet. Snoke, Hux and Kylo Ren are worth watching, though.

[tdown] Black Hiver, given that this crossover includes The Nightmare Before Christmas, SpongeBob SquarePants and Ed, Edd n Eddy, none of which are settings I'm convinced can have C Ms.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#49787: Jan 1st 2016 at 8:22:06 AM

Re: Tienbo: I had seen the movie once, and I was recently thinking of proposing the character myself, I just forgot the title of the movie. What a coincidence. But, anyways, yes, he has my vote.

Why so serious?
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#49789: Jan 1st 2016 at 8:25:08 AM

[up] ?

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#49790: Jan 1st 2016 at 8:26:05 AM

[up]...like racist, classist, sexist...

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#49791: Jan 1st 2016 at 8:26:42 AM

[up] I am none of those things. I respect everyone.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#49792: Jan 1st 2016 at 8:29:38 AM

[up] I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the fact that you voted it down means that you are biased against YT Ps ever being serious.

It's just a joke. I don't hate you.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#49793: Jan 1st 2016 at 8:30:30 AM

[up] Well we disqualified Racist Mario before. I see no difference with Black Hiver.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#49794: Jan 1st 2016 at 8:36:35 AM

[up] Racist Mario is dark humor. Hiver is completely serious. Like I said, it's a character that doesn't belong in a YTP.

Again, I was joking.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#49795: Jan 1st 2016 at 8:37:34 AM

Technically, Racist Mario wasn't a YTP; it was funny, though. My favorite part was Mario smashing Yoshi in the face with an Item Box, causing him to lay several eggs before driving off the road.

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#49796: Jan 1st 2016 at 9:07:23 AM

Currently waking up. Abstaining from Hiver bc I cannot watch a You Tube Poop while I'm this hung over, I just can't. Effortposts in a few.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#49797: Jan 1st 2016 at 9:10:40 AM

[up] My sympathies. Hangovers are never pleasant.

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#49798: Jan 1st 2016 at 9:14:51 AM

As far as I'm concerned, all the new Star Wars villains are [tdown] until we get more details on them or their arcs end. Hux and Snoke are the most likely contenders, whereas Ren and Phasma are the highly unlikely candidates.

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#49799: Jan 1st 2016 at 9:15:57 AM

[up][up] Thank you... it was New Years, Fall Out Boy was playing, things happen. Lol.

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#49800: Jan 1st 2016 at 9:30:47 AM

Okay, TFA effortposts. I spoilered the most obvious, ruinous spoilers, but left certain things open, because I am not a fan of the full-spoiler-tag entry. So basically read at your own risk. (Also, The Merch basically spoils the existence of the one major plot point object I left unspoiled, so I figured it was fine.) There will be a post for each person (I did four effortposts), and then I will comb back through last night's tentative votes and make a post of that.


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