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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#49077: Dec 22nd 2015 at 3:14:45 PM

[tup] Dredd. Attempted body count is the key thing here, and it seems like the show makes clear that it's high.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#49078: Dec 22nd 2015 at 3:15:43 PM

[tup] Dredd

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Animeking1108 Since: Jan, 2010
#49080: Dec 22nd 2015 at 3:50:25 PM

I'd like to suggest The Intruder from Toonami during The Intruder II. In the original Intruder mini-series, he was simply just a mindless alien blob that fed off of metal. Between the two mini-series, he gained sentience, presumably from consuming TOM 1. He then killed TOM 4 and his crew and bragged about it to TOM 5. Finally, he rips out Sara's core. The thing is, he has no real reason to want to take revenge against TOM 5 since he got rid of him through non-lethal measures. He seemed to want to make TOM's life hell just For the Evulz.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#49081: Dec 22nd 2015 at 3:51:33 PM

I'm going to apply automatic severe skepticism towards any example from Toonami.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#49082: Dec 22nd 2015 at 4:01:42 PM

The Intruder sounds like a Generic Doomsday Villain even with his newly gained sentience.

[tdown] Shia Le Beouf since he used to be an alright guy and his insanity impairs his moral agency. [tdown] Cool Cat since he arguably has a Freudian Excuse in that he was raised terribly by Derek. However, I'm tempted to give a [tup] to Derek because it takes a real piece of work to make an anti-bullying film and then proceed to bully people who dare to be critical of him.

edited 22nd Dec '15 4:07:33 PM by ANewMan

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#49083: Dec 22nd 2015 at 4:08:03 PM

[tup] to Miles Dredd.

I was wondering; did we ever come to a conclusion about Solomon Lane? I remember there being some discussion, but can't recall the final decision, if there was one.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#49084: Dec 22nd 2015 at 4:09:00 PM

Fighteer, I'd not go that far. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toonami#Adult_Swim_.282012.E2.80.93present.29 Lots of Anime shows that have already-counted monsters.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#49085: Dec 22nd 2015 at 4:14:07 PM

[tup] to Dredd, what a nasty piece of work.

I also recommend you do propose this planet killing psycho, that alone makes them a strong contender.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#49086: Dec 22nd 2015 at 4:16:22 PM

[up][up]Most of those animes only appeared on Adult Swim/Toonami but didn't originate from it. I honestly doubt Toonami is a setting that can have a CM.

[tup]to Dredd.

edited 22nd Dec '15 4:17:03 PM by username2527

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#49087: Dec 22nd 2015 at 5:26:39 PM

I was wondering when any Max Steel candidates would be proposed. [tup] to Dredd. Is anyone from the original series worth analyzing?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#49088: Dec 22nd 2015 at 6:52:24 PM

Alrighty, here's an effortpost...From the manga Silent Möbius...the series concerns a slightly futuristic Tokyo under attack by demonic, otherworldly beings known as Lucifer Hawks. To defend against them, a secret organization called the Attacked Mystification Police, or AMP was created and kept hidden from the general public. The AMP is an all-female group who each have a personal connection the Lucifer Hawks. The leader, Rally Cheyenne is half Lucifer Hawk herself, and one of the chief members, Katsumi Liqueur is the daughter of the sorcerer who apparently opened the gateway to the Lucifer Hawks world Nemesis in general.

About midway through the series, however, we meet the Big Bad of the whole thing: Ganossa Maximilian.

Who Is He?

Ganossa was the apprentice of Gigelf Liqueur, and assisted him in the project that ended up opening the path to nemesis. Consumed with his desire for power and lust for Katsumi, Ganossa betrayed Gigelf, and sabotaged the project. Instead of bringing understanding and peace between the two worlds, the Lucifer Hawks invaded and attacked humans where they found them, leading to the reprisals that prolonged the cycle. Ganossa made a pact with Nemesis 'herself', becoming an emissary and leader of the Lucifer Hawks as he directs the attack on earth. Ganossa takes a special interest in Katsumi and wants nothing more than to corrupt her.

What's He Done?

Besides directing the Lucifer Hawks to prey on innocent people, Ganossa kicks off the nastiness by, after Katsumi and her love interest Roy finally get together and sleep together? Ganossa promptly murders him to subject Katsumi to despair, causing a psychic backlash that obliterates Katsumi's apartment building, and Katsumi vanishes. Ganossa sets her up to be possessed by the evil sword Medium and directs her to go kill all her former friends and colleagues.

When his partner, Rosa, also finally makes peace with her sister Rally, head of the AMP, Ganossa takes the chance to hurl a spear through both of them, laughing that Rosa was useful enough to give him the opportunity.

When he opens the gateway between Nemesis and Earth completely, Ganossa changes his tactics from 'rule' to his new, true endgame: to destroy both Gaia and Nemesis by smashing them together, annihilating both. Forcibly assembling a new body from the Lucifer Hawks, Ganossa attempts to destroy both worlds. "Destruction to the worlds I cannot possess!" With this stated to cause enough destruction to wipe out the entire galaxy. Revealing himself as the one behind the disaster that brought the Lucifer Hawks to the world, Ganossa declares he shall bring an end to everything, all for his petty jealousy over Gigelf. When he is defeated, he makes one final attempt to drag Katsumi to death with him.

Redeeming Qualities?

Zip. He does claim to love Katsumi, but this is rendered incredibly invalid as he mockingly states in his final Kaiju-sized form, he'll stomp her into oblivion like an ant, and gets off on torturing and corrupting her. He also states she's the only thing from Gigelf he couldn't steal, hence his fixation on her. When he's defeated, he attempts to take Katsumi with him, screaming she belongs to him, being stopped by the power of Katsumi's unborn child repelling him. Otherwise, he's got none. Gigelf never even mistreated him. Ganossa is just that petty.

heinous Standard?

Sets it. The twist is the Lucifer Hawks' own world was decaying and they had no idea at large that humans weren't monsters themselves. Ganossa prevented the two species from understanding one another and achieving a peace. Even moreso, when they realize what he's actually doing, they side with the AMP, saying if it's between his oblivion or fighting alongside the AMP? AMP any day. At the end, the Lucifer Hawks depart back to Nemesis and state they have no objections if the AMP deals with the stray criminal who goes to their world to feed on it. Rosa is the only other really visible villain and she doesn't get up to much, and does a face turn before her death.

Katsumi does a lot of damage when possessed, but that's entirely Ganossa's fault.

Freudian Excuse?

"I am so goddamn jealous of Gigelf because he's awesome and competent while I'm not!" Nah.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#49089: Dec 22nd 2015 at 7:00:26 PM

[tup] Ganossa Maximilian. I feel like him and Onimi would get along.

Speaking of Yuuzhan Vong, did you vote on Zenoc Quah, Lighty?

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#49090: Dec 22nd 2015 at 7:01:32 PM

Yes to Ganossa. Also, I have a pretty... weird question. Here it goes.

How much intelligence would a zombie have to display to be eligible for this trope? How much intelligence so that it clearly wasn't just a brain-dead corpse? Because I may have an unorthodox example in the form of a zombie, but I need to know if its intelligence is enough to clarify if it has agency.

Why so serious?
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#49091: Dec 22nd 2015 at 7:03:39 PM

It depends. If the zombie still has memories of its human life, then it has agency. That is also the case if they think enough like humans.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#49092: Dec 22nd 2015 at 7:22:32 PM

[tup] to Ganossa

@Scraggle: Haven't actually seen the original Max Steel, though I do plan on watching it....at some point....

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#49093: Dec 22nd 2015 at 7:28:02 PM

@Clown-Face: We already have at least one zombie listed from the Dead Snow movies.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#49094: Dec 22nd 2015 at 8:04:23 PM

Alright, here it is. Abbott Hayes from a direct-to-video film titled Children of the Living Dead.

Abbot Hayes was a Serial Rapist and Serial Killer in life before he was caught and imprisoned by Deputy Hughes and Randolph. In prison, he was murdered. However, Abbot Hayes comes back as a zombie (somehow) and led a zombie attack on the town. The zombies were killed off, but Abbot pulled a gambit to lure in Hughes. He held a group of children hostage in a barn, and when Deputy Hughes came in to save them, Abbot attacked him and clawed him in order to infect him. He sported a huge Slasher Smile while doing this. Well, Hughes has Randolph shoot him so he doesn't turn into a zombie, and Abbot vanished after that.

Many years later, Abbot resurfaces to restart the zombie apocalypse on the town. When a group of teenagers are driving near his former house, Abbot steps onto the road in front of them causing them to swerve and drive the vehicle off a cliff, killing them all. Abbott then starts laughing. Some time after this, Abbot goes to the graveyard, kills a cemetery worker, and bites the dead bodies, zombifying them. It should also be noted that he clearly bit them with the intention of infecting them; he pull out the dead girl's hand, bit it, then put it back into the case and waited for her to come back alive.

The following day, Abbott lounges in the forest and spies on Randolph (now the new deputy) and another cemetery worker. When Randolph leaves, Abbot sneaks up on the worker, bites his throat out, then tosses him into the casket and works the machines, lowering the casket with the man inside of it into the ground and burying it.

The following year, Abbott then leads the zombies into attacking the town, killing and infecting a lot of people. Throughout this, Abbot is shown constantly grinning and laughing during the chaos. When the zombies corner several people in a diner, Abbott stands back and watches from afar, smiling. The zombies are killed again, but Randolph is infected and has Laurie (one of the children Abbott kidnapped in the first apocalypse) shoot him.

The film ends with Abbott, having survived, wandering back into the mists, presumably to go into hiding.

Moral agency

Abbott doesn't speak, but he displays a lot of intelligence throughout the film that seems to indicate that he isn't a mindless monster. He appears to be the de-facto leader of the other zombies. The other zombies simply seem to kill everything on sight, but Abbott is shown biting and clawing people with the clear intention of infecting them. Aside from his constant grins and laughs, there's a closeup to him stroking his chin when the other zombies are abandoning the diner.

He was also a murderous criminal even before turning into a zombie.

So, with that all said, I think he's of the thinking variety with zombies.

edited 22nd Dec '15 8:26:41 PM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#49095: Dec 22nd 2015 at 8:25:18 PM

[tup] Ganossa and Abbott.

Speaking of zombie movies, I'm watching one entitled Wicked Little Things. The Greater-Scope Villain of the piece orders a mine blown up with a bunch of child labourers inside. We see that little Moral Event Horizon, but we never see the bastard himself aside from a photograph. Could he qualify, or is he too close to Generic Doomsday Villain territory?

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#49096: Dec 22nd 2015 at 8:29:11 PM

[up]That seems like the reverse of Offscreen Villainy: we see the act, but not the guy who did it.

Why so serious?
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#49097: Dec 22nd 2015 at 9:00:19 PM

[up] Exactly. That's why I'm questioning if he can count.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#49098: Dec 22nd 2015 at 9:01:08 PM

One MEH-crossing for a 99% offscreen character is insufficient in my opinion. [tdown]

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#49099: Dec 22nd 2015 at 9:01:32 PM

Well, it's hard to call someone a Monster when we don't really see him. We know practically nothing about him other than that one act.

Why so serious?
Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#49100: Dec 22nd 2015 at 9:39:51 PM

According to his Villains Wiki page, Abbott was sexually abused by his mother. What did that entail?


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