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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#48876: Dec 20th 2015 at 9:17:46 AM

Alright, here I go.

HEADS UP, THIS WILL HAVE MASSIVE SPOILERS FOR UNDERTALE. IF YOU WANT TO PLAY THE GAME, AVOID THIS.

Who are they.

They are a child who will be named here Chara (the placeholder name) who has fallen into the world of monsters long before your character, Frisk, has. In this world humans and monsters are separated ever since a war between them. Monsters are trapped underground behind a barrier and seek to escape. The barrier can be passed with both a human and a monster soul and can be shattered permanently with seven souls kept alive after death. Chara became misanthropic and escaped from humanity. When they fell down into the monster world, Asriel Dreemur, son of the King and Queen of the monster world found them and took a liking for him along with his parents. Chara was adopted by them and was considered a second child.

What have they done?

Despite this, Chara wasn't really that good. Apparently for fun, he made his father sick and didn't care for him, instead making fun of the situation. But the real thing that kicked things off was when he poisened himself and died, letting Asriel absorb his soul and bypass the barrier. The human led Asriel back to his home village and intended to kill the villagers, but Asriel held back, resulting in his death (Asriel took Chara's body with him, so the villagers thought that he killed him).

When Frisk falls into the same pit many years later, Chara awakens inside him. If the player makes Frisk go on the Genocide route, it's implied that it's Chara gradually taking control over Frisk over the course of the first level (the perspective changes from second person to first, there are wired dialog anomalies like "Where are the knives" being said in red, the player losing control of Frisk at several points, and Flowey recognizing Chara). So if the Genocide route goes on, then the Child in possession of Frisk will kill everyone who can be encountered in the game until there is no one else left to kill. At the end, they will somehow destroy the world and force the player to sell their soul to them in exchange for another replay. But Chara will either force you to do Genocide again or take control over your character at the very end of the True Pacifist run. Either way, everyone dies all over again.

Are they heinous by the standards of the story?

Pretty much. Flowey is the only one who comes close, but even then, he doesn't outright kill anyone except Asgore in neutral (he absorbs everyone's souls in True Pacifist, but that's reversible) and ultimately has the excuse of not having a soul and thus being unable to feel love.

Any redeeming factors?

None that I know of. Apparently, they and Asriel were friends, but in the Playable Epilogue of True Pacifist, Asriel realizes that Chara was kind of a dick.

Consensus

[tup]

edited 20th Dec '15 9:22:54 AM by SatoshiBakura

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#48877: Dec 20th 2015 at 9:19:06 AM

[up][up][up][up]

That's the weird thing about Chara though. S/He's only the player character specifically in the Genocide Route (where the player character is at it's worst).

It's potentially revealed by Asriel in the Pacifist route that s/he intended to take over Asriel's body and kill the humans though.

edited 20th Dec '15 9:19:43 AM by Awesomekid42

lrrose Since: Jul, 2009
#48878: Dec 20th 2015 at 9:25:05 AM

The game makes it clear that the Fallen Child is distinct from the player character. [tup] to the Fallen Child.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#48879: Dec 20th 2015 at 9:28:59 AM

[tup] Fallen Child.

edited 20th Dec '15 9:30:22 AM by DemonDuckofDoom

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#48880: Dec 20th 2015 at 9:29:13 AM

Okay I'll agree with [tup]Fallen Child.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#48881: Dec 20th 2015 at 9:34:33 AM

I have a new proposal. Agnes from Hansel & Gretel Get Baked

Who Is Agnes

Agnes is a witch and drug dealer. She's also a Serial Killer and is fond of using Cold-Blooded Torture on her victims. She sucks out people's youth to restore her own.

What Does She Do

The film opens with her killing an electrician who had discovered her marijuana crop.

Shortly later into the film, a stoner named Ashton (Gretel's boyfriend) shows up at Agnes' house for weed. Agnes, of course, drugs Ashton and straps him onto her operating table, where she tortures him hideously, including tearing out his eye and eating it, tearing off pieces of his skin, and then ultimately sucking out his youth. Gretel later shows up and asks for Ashton's whereabouts, but she gets no answers.

Later on, Agnes' dealer, Manny, warns her that a drug kingpin named Carlos is coming for her. Agnes then slits Manny's throat and sucks out his youth. When Carlos shows up, she kills him and one of his Mooks and traps the other in a cage.

Gretel and Bianca (her friend) arrive at Agnes' house and are promptly captured (Agnes also turns Carlos into zombies to do her bidding). Agnes then kills the henchmen in front of them.

Hansel and the police show up at her house. Agnes shoots the police, but they survive due to wearing bullet-proof vests. Agnes tries to cook Hansel alive, and succeeds in killing Bianca before Hansel and Gretel seemingly burn her to death. However, at the end of the film, Agnes turns out to be alive and promptly kills a man and steals his car.

Mitigating factors

Well, she does own a dog, but she mainly uses it to guard her captured victims. It's a comedy-horror, but Agnes' actions aren't really Played for Laughs. At all.

edited 20th Dec '15 9:36:03 AM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#48882: Dec 20th 2015 at 9:42:11 AM

Going to give The Fallen Child a [tup]

edited 20th Dec '15 9:42:30 AM by Awesomekid42

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#48883: Dec 20th 2015 at 9:42:15 AM

[tup] to Agnes and the Fallen Child.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#48884: Dec 20th 2015 at 9:42:58 AM

Tentative [tup] to the Fallen Child.

Why so serious?
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#48885: Dec 20th 2015 at 9:46:53 AM

[tdown] Agnes. I can't take a film titled Habsel and Gretel Get Baked seriously.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#48886: Dec 20th 2015 at 9:48:40 AM

[up]Her actions really aren't played for comedy. It's a stupid title, admittedly, but Agnes is not all that comedic.

Why so serious?
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#48888: Dec 20th 2015 at 9:57:03 AM

[up][up] Hm. Put me in under "abstain" then.

thok That's Dr. Title, thank you! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
#48889: Dec 20th 2015 at 10:12:58 AM

I know that there's a decent chunk of the fanbase who don't see Chara as complete monster. A lot of his early crimes leave room for interpretation over how Chara felt about them (the poisoning of Asgore is presented in a way that we can't tell if it is deliberate or an accident, for example), and the Genocide route/Post-genocide route crimes are clearly influenced by the player's decisions (I'll emphasize here that the game makes it clear that Chara is fueled by the player's decisions and not by the player character.)

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#48890: Dec 20th 2015 at 10:36:45 AM

Sorry, I cannot in good conscience vote yes on Chara. His actions are entirely dependent on the player character choosing his route, not to mention that I see Omnicidal Maniac more than CM. [tdown]

It would also set an awful precedent to let player - characters be eligible for C Ms based on what they could POTENTIALLY do.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#48891: Dec 20th 2015 at 10:57:26 AM

I'm inclined to say [tdown]to Chara. He sounds like a Generic Doomsday Villain who just wants to kill everyone. Add that to the player character controlling his actions and he becomes even less of a contender.

[tdown]to Agnes due to the comedy factor.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#48892: Dec 20th 2015 at 10:58:08 AM

[up]It's really not played all that for comedy.

Why so serious?
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#48893: Dec 20th 2015 at 10:59:05 AM

[tup]Agnes and the Fallen Child.

edited 20th Dec '15 11:14:30 AM by AustinDR

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#48894: Dec 20th 2015 at 11:12:20 AM

[up][up][up][up] Chara is not the player character, but a soul that possess them. From what it seems, Frisk and Chara have set personalities and it's up to the player to decide which of the two shines through (Frisk is pure good, Chara is pure evil).

Not to mention a that Chara doesn't want to destroy the world only once. They want you to reset the game so they can destroy it over and over and over again. That's messed up.

edited 20th Dec '15 11:16:08 AM by SatoshiBakura

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#48895: Dec 20th 2015 at 11:22:35 AM

[up] Up to the player to choose which = monstrosity controlled by player. Voting yes on this character would set up AWFUL precedents and we'd have to bring up about seventy previously discarded C Ms to re-debate if we do.

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#48896: Dec 20th 2015 at 11:25:30 AM

[up][up][up][up][up] Even if there's a comedy factor (I haven't seen the movie) I hardly see being comedic as much of a disqualifying factor unless the character itself is meant as parody considering how we have CM's such as Hades or The Joker who have plenty of comedic moments, several not even meant to reinforce them as evil.

edited 20th Dec '15 11:25:55 AM by Awesomekid42

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#48897: Dec 20th 2015 at 11:26:03 AM

NOW I remember why I have reservations against The Fallen Child. The Genocide route is optional for the player, so even if Chara is a different person the metatexual nature of the game means there's little distinction between Frisk, The Player, and The Fallen Child.

edited 20th Dec '15 11:26:16 AM by VeryMelon

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#48898: Dec 20th 2015 at 11:28:45 AM

[up][up]I actually watched extended parts of the film with Agnes just to make sure she was played seriously enough (the film is on youtube).

Agnes' actions are played seriously, and when she's actually being evil, it's rarely comedic.

Why so serious?
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#48899: Dec 20th 2015 at 11:28:52 AM

[up][up][up][up] Chara's only controlled by the player on what's literally the most evil possible route. Really, him/her being controlled by the player is pretty close to Not Important and Ellen being controlled by the player, who are both CM's.

edited 20th Dec '15 11:29:54 AM by Awesomekid42

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#48900: Dec 20th 2015 at 11:35:04 AM

[up][up][up]

The Pacifist route also makes a huge distinction between Chara and Frisk as well though. And even if the player decides to never do a Genocide route, the action of Chara manipulating Asriel to cross the boundary, and attempting to destroy humanity occur before the beginning of the game, outside of the player's control.

edited 20th Dec '15 11:49:28 AM by Awesomekid42


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