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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#47501: Nov 18th 2015 at 12:08:16 PM

[up] The abuse had nothing to do with the Reaper's crimes, though. Perotta Does Not Like Men, and thus primarily (or exclusively, I forget) kills them, because of his abusive dad.

edited 18th Nov '15 12:08:50 PM by DemonDuckofDoom

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#47502: Nov 18th 2015 at 12:11:17 PM

So a while back, I got into the Resident Evil series and I think we have a new candidate in Derek C. Simmons, one of the main antagonists in Resident Evil 6 along side Carla Radamdes; the latter takes the Big Bad spot in the games other campaigns, and is the bigger threat between the two but Simmon's takes center stages as the villain in Leon's campaign.

Derek Simmons is the head of an organization called the Family, pretty much the RE universe's answer to the illuminati. He is also the United States Presidential Aid. He is also the one behind the Government's destruction of Racoon City and seeks to cover it up. Prior to the Racoon City incident, Simmons met a spy named Ada Wong who worked for him in some missions before he grew infatuated with her. She does return his feelings and their business relationship comes to an inevitable end. Some time later The young and extremely intelligent Carla Radames came into employment under Simmons after her extensive research in genetics. While Simmons simply wanted to use her to develop viruses and bio-organic weapons, Carla had become infatuated with him just as he had with Ada. Wishing nothing more than to please Simmons and obtain his praise, Carla worked diligently to develop what would eventually become the C-Virus.

With Radames help, Simmons started "Project Ada", having Carla oversee the experiments. The goal you ask ? Perfectly recreating Ada Wong; disappointment ran rampant with the project, as thousands of test subjects only resulted in repeated failures and some awful monstrosities. It was not until their 12,235th experiment that there was a success. After having discovered that Carla's genetic make-up would provide the closest result, Simmons took advantage of the woman's feelings for him. He convinced her to be the next subject Much to Simmons' delight, he was able to witness the birth of Ada Wong as Carla was hatched from the chrysalid after a decade.

Simmons dedicated himself to "programming" her; he wanted to make sure that she was like Ada in every regard. That was except for one thing - he had to make sure that Ada would never leave his side again. Everything went just as Simmons had hoped as the new Ada exhibited the same intelligence and mannerisms as the woman he remembered, though this one loved him implicitly. He had to be sure that this time, Ada Wong would not betray him. While Simmons was completely unaware that his new Ada was beginning to have internal conflicts with the small bit of Carla Radames that remained in her very being, he showered her with her own responsibility by giving her a submarine base and complete control of The Family's East Asia soldiers. This eventually leads to Carla founding Neo-Umbrella, with own plans to destroy the world but she's a separate threat in this game.

Sherry Birkin remained in protective custody with the government, Derek C. Simmons was made her legal guardian. Claire Redfield often visited Sherry whenever she wished, however, Claire was suspicious him and had even tried to warn Sherry at one point, however Claire's letter never arrived.Her suspicions about Simmons were ultimately confirmed when Simmons and Carla ended up using a strain of Sherry's G-virus variant without her knowledge for further development in the C-Virus. Sherry would be made a government agent and would report directly to Simmons, who say the benefit of having an agent with a skilled agent with regenerative capabilities able to do his bidding, despite how he felt about her benevolent personality.

In 2012, he learned of Albert Wesker's mercenary son, Jake Muller, and sent Sherry to take Jake into custody but he didn't anticipate the betrayal, as Carla captured them and took them to China to work on enhancing the C-Virus for her own agenda. At the time of the game, Simmons learned President Adam Benford was planning to reveal the truth of Racoon City to the public. To continue the cover up, Simmon comes up with a plan; using lepotitsa, creatures that were capable of dispersing a gas that would cause a C-Virus infection and mutate those infected into zombies, were strategically placed prior to hatching all around Tall Oaks. The key to his plan was secret service agent Helena Harper. Simmons had Helena's younger sister, Deborah Harper, kidnapped and used the young girl as motivation for Helena to follow his demands. Unknown to Helena, Simmons already planned on killing Deborah. Simmon's plan went off without a hitch; using the C-Virus, he had the president turned into a zombie and started a zombie outbreak, killing and infecting 70,000 innocent people. Simmon's also planned on having Leon made a scapegoat for the presidents involvement and intended to Simmons put the Sterilization Operation into motion again with the intent of destroy Tall Oaks and any evidence against his involvement in the process.

Simmon's is caught by surprise by a bio-terror attack in China with the C-Virus, with Carla and Neo-Umbrella taking responsibility. Simmon's makes his way to China, where he confronts Leon and Helena, as well as Jake and Sherry; he orders his men to kill them, but to spare Jake and Sherry as he still has use for them. Simmons was suddenly assaulted by a stray J'avo, one of Carla's personal soldiers. The J'avo only managed a single shot before Simmons' men killed him, but this single shot had come from a needle gun loaded with a syringe of Carla's newly engineered enhanced C-Virus. Enraged beyond all reason by this betrayal, Simmons attempted to make his escape, stumbling onto a passing train with Leon and Helena in tow behind him.

For the remainder of his role in Leon's campaign, the Family simply decides to abandon him to his fate starting his never ending Villainous Breakdown; in he last three appearances which relentlessly stalks and fights Leon and Helena in his multiple mutant forms before finally dying in his third boss fight .

Redeeming qualities you ask ? None that are real. You see, while his character sheet gives him and Even Evil Has Standards and Pet the Dog, they state they aren't genuine and most likely pragmatic. He claims to be in love with Ada Wong, but it's clear its not redeeming love, but rather obsessive lust, to the point her he has a woman made into a clone of Ada and brainwash her. Here's what it says in his character sheet. In regards to being Sherry's legal guardian he says this "Her overly-kind and ultimately naive, charitable nature makes me sick. But, she could still be of some use."

  • Even Evil Has Standards: He has no qualms against murdering the President, as well as infecting the entire city of Tall Oaks and nuking it to cover his tracks in order to cover up the U.S. government's involvement in Raccoon City, but he draws the line at Carla's plan to infect and destroy the entire world. Of course, this is more out of his obsession with global stability than any actual standards.
  • Pet the Dog: Sherry's legal guardian, after the clustercuss of trouble that was Raccoon City. He tries to treat her right, letting Claire visit her frequently and ordering his soldiers not to shoot her. This is likely not a show of kindness towards Sherry, but him protecting his stake in her. An agent that can regenerate is undeniably useful for him. Supplementary information within the game seems to indicate that he doesn't actually like her very much at all.
  • Well-Intentioned Extremist: His primary motivation for having the President zombified is to prevent the social unrest and mayhem that he believes would be the inevitable result of revealing the U.S. government's involvement in the Raccoon City incident. However, Simmons is prevented from becoming sympathetic by his lust for Ada Wong. Not only do Simmons's actions in pursuit of his lust squick out several other characters (most notably Ada herself and her Love Interest Leon Kennedy, whose disgusted reactions will most likely be shared by the player), they are also the direct cause for Carla Radames's Start of Darkness, and therefore, pretty much every bad thing that happened over the course of the game. Furthermore, in the process of preventing said information from becoming public, he infects and kills over 70,000 innocent people with the C-Virus; Helena even calls him out on it, pointing out that, to prevent one possible disaster, he caused another.

As for Heinousness; he's got to compete with the likes of Alexia Ashford and of course, Albert Wesker when it comes to being evil - this guy is behind the nuking of Racoon City, responsible for 12,235 experiments over the course of ten years, just out of lust, and masterminded a zombie outbreak that killed 70,000 people. I'd say he's as evil as the Umbrella Corporation.

edited 18th Nov '15 12:12:35 PM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#47503: Nov 18th 2015 at 12:16:12 PM

Simmons was discussed before and deemed insufficiently heinous.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#47504: Nov 18th 2015 at 12:58:05 PM

[up][up]Blaming him for the nuking of Raccoon is silly. It was overrun by BOWs which threatened to break out. The city was obliterated to prevent that. You can argue that it was overreaction, but it's a long way from one of the series' most evil actions.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#47505: Nov 18th 2015 at 1:11:19 PM

I know, I know, I just noted it because it seemed important enough to be on his rapsheet considering it's part of his character history. I still say that his project Carla and the terror attack he masterminded was enough to consider him. I also don't hold him responsible for Carla's destroy the world plan, because he didn't intend it, that said his objection to it was mostly Pragmatic Villainy. I guess I can't use the resources argument for him, seeing as head of the Family he has unlimited resources at his disposal.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#47506: Nov 18th 2015 at 1:21:47 PM

Turner had no feuderan excuse for his crimes or any that we know

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#47507: Nov 18th 2015 at 1:31:15 PM

[up] With him it seems it's more of him not meeting the heinous standard.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#47508: Nov 18th 2015 at 1:44:58 PM

@Very Melon: This guy fails the heinous standard? What exactly is the heinoys of this franchise?

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#47509: Nov 18th 2015 at 1:50:12 PM

Well, Albert Wesker killed or attempted to kill virtually everyone he knows, and lans to destroy 90% of the world to become a god, and Alexia Ashford planned to infect the world with the T-Veronica virus, enslaving most of humanity to her will because she is just full of herself, and when she was a kid, she tortured a student to death for being almost as smart as she is.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#47510: Nov 18th 2015 at 2:29:05 PM

I'm conflicted on it (partly because I wrote the current write-up; I take pride in my writing), but after some reflection, I'll say cut Thawne. His Pet the Dog moment might have been late, but it didn't seem to have an ulterior motive, and he did genuinely care about Cisco in his own twisted way. I guess TV!Thawne is just one of those villains who's really, really bad, but just isn't a CM. It happens. I'll be keeping an eye on Zoom, in case he ends up being worth discussing.

Not much of an opinion on Resident Evil (never played the games, never bothered with the movies, although I do like Michelle Rodriguez), but Wesker and Ashford seem way worse than Simmons. Even if he has been discussed before, I'll say [tdown] to him.

edited 18th Nov '15 2:33:45 PM by DeCarta

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#47511: Nov 18th 2015 at 2:50:17 PM

@Beast: And Simmons is on a similar scale to those two?

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#47512: Nov 18th 2015 at 3:04:43 PM

Apparently, seeing as he was voted down for insufficient heinousness.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
speyeker Since: Jan, 2001
#47514: Nov 18th 2015 at 4:31:23 PM

Just to be clear, but over the summer Andrew Kreisberg DID confirm that Eobard Thawne will be making a reappearance on the show at some point (played by Matt Letscher for sure and possibly Tom Cavanagh as well) during the season, even though it hasn't happened yet as of seven episodes in other than his posthumous Pet the Dog moment in the season premiere. From my understanding, we decided to take a "wait and see" approach to the character before making a decision on whether or not to cut him, and his arc has been on pause since we last discussed this, since he's, well, dead—or more precisely, unborn.

I'm not sure why we're bringing up Wells-2 in the argument. Him and Eobard Thawne are both played by Tom Cavanagh but they're completely different characters.

EDIT: In fact, if anything, the most recent episode—Gorilla Warfare—actually manages to portray Eobard in an even harsher light, as it's strongly implied that the relationship between him and Grodd wasn't a mere Villainous Friendship as originally thought, but rather Eobard used Grodd's well-founded psychological trauma for his own ends, and was effectively an abusive "father".

edited 19th Nov '15 7:06:08 PM by speyeker

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#47515: Nov 18th 2015 at 6:47:40 PM

Update: Remember I mentioned Gwi from Scholar who Walks the Night?

Yeah, I'm halfway through? And episode six has him wrack up a triple digit body count in that alone.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#47516: Nov 18th 2015 at 8:23:41 PM

I agree with the others [tdown] on Simmons

Also I a little confused, is Lester Turner voted [tup] or [tdown] on being a CM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#47517: Nov 18th 2015 at 9:00:25 PM

[tdown] Simmons and Turner.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#47518: Nov 18th 2015 at 9:29:45 PM

I think it's safe to say that any number of people in this thread and on this site are going to be on the autism spectrum or similar ones. It's the sort of website/hobby that attracts people on the spectrum.

Forgot to mention that this applies for me too. tongue

SirBearington Since: May, 2015
#47519: Nov 18th 2015 at 10:01:18 PM

I believe I found a potential CM!

What's the work?

An interactive, text-based game called "A Wise Use of Time" from the people of "Choice of Games"

Who's the candidate?

Barnabas, a Faux Affably Evil serial killer with the ability to freeze time.

What does he do?

He targets people who have the same power (such as yourself) as him so he could become more powerful. He has no qualms killing their loved ones in order to get his way. He prefers to slowly strangles his victims to death so he could feel the life slip away from their bodies. We first encounter him when he shoves a random old man in front of a subway train and stops time before he gets hit. He does this just to get your attention. After exchanging a few words and threatening your loved ones, he gives you a three second chance to save the old man before he unfreezes time. He does this to see if he could manipulate you. Several decades ago, a man with time powers became frightened by his power and sought the help of a doctor. However, the doctor was a conman who cheated the man out of all his money which resulted in the man's suicide. When Barnabas arrived to kill the man himself and finds out what happened, he kills the doctor and goes to steal the money as "payment for the losses". When the doctor's son tries to stop him, Barnabas freezes him in time. He is now unable to move or speak yet he is fully aware of his surroundings. He will do the same to you if fail to beat him. If you kill a fellow time controller then you find out that killing them doesn't strengthen your powers at all. This implies he is a serial killer For the Evulz.

Heinous standard?

He is by far the most evil character in the story and definitely one of the worst in anything from Choice of Games.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#47520: Nov 18th 2015 at 10:23:27 PM

Does Barnabas have any redeeming qualities? It doesn't sound like it, but it can't hurt to ask.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#47521: Nov 18th 2015 at 11:14:29 PM

  • 47527: Holy shit dude! Where can I watch this?
  • 47528: [tdown]
  • Tentative [tup] for Barnabas. Changing to a [tdown] based on [down]

edited 19th Nov '15 12:09:49 AM by ACW

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#47522: Nov 18th 2015 at 11:17:14 PM

To elaborate on A Wise Use Of Time, it's a choice-based game where you determine the outcome and all that jazz. So some players play through isn't the same as others (The overall premise, progression of the story, and characters are, in general, the same, but the dialogue and how certain events play out vary based on your choices.)

With that in mind, [tdown] to Barnabas. In my personal playthroughs (Around 4 playthroughs in total), Barnabas was Affably Evil. He compliments characters when it wouldn't gain him anything, he actually gives you a warning he's going to kill you so you have time to say goodbye to your friends and family (In a completely not-mocking way), and, depending on your choices, he can actually have a sympathetic scene or two.

In conclusion, if your character doesn't actually question others about Barnabas and you pick the bare minimum interaction with him, sure, he can come off as a Monster. However, if one chooses to have dialogue with him and learn more about him and his full character, he doesn't make for a true Complete Monster.

edited 18th Nov '15 11:19:04 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#47523: Nov 19th 2015 at 2:53:09 AM

[up] Well, in that case, [tdown] Barnabas.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#47524: Nov 19th 2015 at 5:23:50 AM

For Valkyrie Profile, either the character page is inaccurate, or Lezard doesn't count.


Rewrites:
  • Alex Zorgen, while not a Serial Killer himself, runs a human trafficking ring that sells women, regardless of age, to serial killers and other criminals online. In 1993, prior to creating this ring, he abducted a woman named Donna Goldhard, and kept her as a Sex Slave, repeatedly raping and torturing her for the next 22 years. From one of those rapes came a son, named Kyle. In the season premiere "X," Alex, along with his family, kidnaps a woman and uses his website to auction her off to a serial killer. As the season progresses, Alex has Kyle stalk the BAU's newest member, Kate Callahan, by posing as an attractive high school senior online to gain their trust of her niece Meg, and her friend, who are both 14 years old. He sends his wife and son to kidnap them in the season finale "Hunt," but Kyle only catches Meg. Due to this, Alex murders Kyle, his own son, without showing any remorse and simply moves on with his plan to sell Meg online to a serial killer. He was later arrested by the BAU, but Meg had already been sold. When they ask him where Meg’s captor is keeping her, he refuses to cooperate and just taunts Kate about the things her captor is going to do to her. Having no regard for anyone, not even his own family, and only caring about selling women to his online human trafficking ring and making money out of it, Alex Zorgen is a sociopath in its worst form and among the worst the BAU had to face.
  • Circle Of Fear: Robert Cameron's dark half from the episode "Alter-Ego" is the sociopathic and highly manipulative imaginary double of a young boy who becomes real. Originally imagined by Robert as a chess partner while he's stuck at home with a broken leg, the double quickly gains independence and starts going to school in Robert's place. Deciding that he dislikes Robert's teacher, he begins to antagonize her, but always makes sure to arrange things to make it look like she's antagonizing him instead. Intentionally making her paranoid, he causes her to lash out at him, getting her fired. He then shows up at her house and causes her to trip and fall onto her gardening shears, killing her. His presence causes the real Robert to become weaker, and he ultimately intends to sap his life energy and replace him. He brags that no one, not even the boy's parents, will realize what has happened. Additionally, he kills several of Robert's pets seemingly for no other reason than to torment him. Evidentlynote  a separate entity, rather than a simple manifestation of Robert's negative thoughts, this Evil Twin was definitely a force to be reckoned with.

edited 19th Nov '15 5:28:24 AM by ACW

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#47525: Nov 19th 2015 at 6:12:14 AM

I want to become a writer, but is it bad if I make a lot of my villains complete monsters?

They'll mostly either be The Dragons to the sympathetic anti-villain, 3D monsters who are more realistically monstrous, or to show off the dark side of humanity.

But is it still bad if I have one or two in every story I write?

It's Spooky Month!

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