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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ZetaRidge (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#47301: Nov 13th 2015 at 2:32:54 PM

I've found this in Grand Theft Auto IV: The Lost and Damned YMMV's page.

  • Complete Monster: William "Billy" Grey, president of the Lost Motorcycle Club, is introduced being released from court-ordered rehab (which he was placed into after being arrested for possessing heroin) and returns to the club, only to find that his bike was given to a rival MC, the Angels of Death, in a deal that would end the feud the two clubs engaged in for years and help pay for Billy's lawyer fees. Enraged, he forcefully reclaims his bike with the help of the rest of the Lost, reigniting the war between the two factions. Later, when Jason Michaels is killed by Niko Bellic, the protagonist the main story in Grand Theft Auto 4, Billy Grey lies and says the Angels of Death killed him, using this as an excuse to steal their heroin. It turns out the heroin belonged to the Liberty City Triads who demand it be returned. Jim and Johnny manage to convince Billy to do so, but not before he makes a deal with the Triads so that they kill Jim and Johnny when the two go to return it. Fortunately, they fight their way out, and Billy gets arrested by the LAPD that the Triads tipped off (while blaming Johnny for it). Billy's imprisonment causes Brian, his most loyal follower, and the members who were also loyal to Billy to betray the other members of the club, which starts a civil war. Finally, he decides to testify against the Lost in order to be released from prison (even after stressing the importance of loyalty to Johnny). This prompts the Lost to break into the prison Billy's being held at in order to silence him. During his last moments, he goads Johnny into executing him before attempting to stab him with a shank. Violent, hedonistic, and utterly sociopathic, Billy is one of the few characters in the Grand Theft Auto franchise to have absolutely zero redeeming qualities, and who's loyalty lies only towards himself. Oh, and he brags about banging Johnny's girlfriend Ashley to his face.

I think this was discussed before and correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Grey disqualified for this trope since the heinous bar is set so high?

edited 13th Nov '15 2:33:03 PM by ZetaRidge

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#47302: Nov 13th 2015 at 2:47:36 PM

@ACW, I added the new Mr. Blonde and spoiler character write-ups to their YMMV pages. And feel better. Colds are the worst.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#47303: Nov 13th 2015 at 3:01:25 PM

Billy Grey ? Yeah we cut him like three years ago.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ZetaRidge (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#47304: Nov 13th 2015 at 3:07:01 PM

[up] Well apparently some troper for whatever reason added him back to the ymmv page. surprised

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#47305: Nov 13th 2015 at 3:27:37 PM

Grey sounds nowhere near bad enough by GTA standards [tdown] him.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#47306: Nov 13th 2015 at 4:13:50 PM

To clarify my last post, I was upvoting King Miktran. But I'll also give an [tup] to the Prophet of Exquisite Devotion, who sounds like he's a good example of different villain levels qualifying.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#47307: Nov 13th 2015 at 6:02:12 PM

Just came back from Spectre and I am not going to say anything about Franz yet, but great movie!

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#47308: Nov 13th 2015 at 6:49:12 PM

Hey guys, I found another CM candidate from Criminal Minds. His name is Lester Turner.

Who is he? What has he done?

Lester Turner was an ephebophilic spree killer, budding serial rapist, and robber who appeared in the episode "Outlaw" in the 11th season of Criminal Minds. When he was 16, he raped a 15 year old girl and made her 12 year old brother watch him commit the act before attacking the boy and severely injuring him. He was sentenced to 9 years in prison, in which he met a fellow criminal, William Duke Mason. When his sentence was over, he partnered up with Duke and together they went began a murder spree starting with a local diner where they raped the female cashier and forced the two male workers two watch. When Duke had personal matters to attend to, Turner decided to rob a drug store for money and drugs where he forced his captive watch as he was killing them off. This uncalled action was disapproved by his partner, creating tension between the two. When they go to rob a gas station, he immediately shoots the cashier and attempted to shoot an innocent man and his son and would have succeeded if Duke didn't intervene. Duke finally had enough of Turner's action, to the point where he decide to leave him. This did not sit well with Turner as he decides to track down Duke, Duke's ex-girlfriend, and their son and had the intent to kill them. When the BAU finally tracks Turner and Duke down, Turner tries to shoot as many cops as he can before getting shoot himself.

Any freudian excuse/redeeming qualities?

Unlike Duke who had a dark and troubled past including, his father abandoning him when he was little, love for his ex and the son he just found out, and the standards of not killing kids, Turner has no freudian excuse, loved ones or standards. We don't find out why he raped a teenager and forced her brother to watch, other than For the Evulz. Though Turner didn't pull out his gun when Duke decided to leave him, though he explicitly insults him for doing so, we see him track down Duke with the possible intention of killing him and anyone he comes into contact with.

Heinous Standard?

Turner is a rapist, sadist, psychopath, and spree-killer, who invokes disgust from his partner who by all means is no saint either, so I believe so.

Final Verdict?

I would give him a [tup]. what about you guys?

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#47309: Nov 13th 2015 at 7:00:32 PM

Not trying to beat a dead-horse or anything but I have new information about My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic. In particular the heinous standard, it was previously discussed that the heinous standard was too low for it to have a true CM, I believe. Well, Equstria Girls is in the same continuity as Friendship is Magic and in the recent movie/special the villainous, but sympathetic protagonist Human Twilight became an Omnicidal Maniac attempting to tear apart reality and destroy the entire verse. Does that set the heinous standard high enough where it can have one or does that make it even worse of a problem for anyone to qualify due to the protagonist having such a heinous crime on their rapsheet?

edited 13th Nov '15 7:00:52 PM by username2527

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#47310: Nov 13th 2015 at 7:13:25 PM

[tup] Turner

[up] Is human!Twilight still the protagonist?

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#47311: Nov 13th 2015 at 7:21:22 PM

[up]She's still one of the main heroes, yes.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#47312: Nov 13th 2015 at 7:41:36 PM

[up] Yeah, that kinda botches the heinous standard, which I never thought would happen to My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#47313: Nov 13th 2015 at 9:02:30 PM

I'll wait for someone with more knowledge on Criminal Minds to step forth, but for now I lean [tup].

Also, two things of concern: firstly, did the discussion on Scarlett just die out, or was she downvoted and I simply can't remember? Two, Baron Praxis concerns me a little; how does he fare against Veger, Erol, and Metal Kor in terms of the heinous standard?

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#47315: Nov 13th 2015 at 9:56:00 PM

On Midnight Sparkle (that's what evil, demonic human!Twilight is called), while she blurs the heinous standard for the FIM-verse (which was unlikely to have an example of the trope anyway aside from possibly Tirek), she definitely sets the standard for those spinoff movies (set in an in-universe Alternate Reality), which makes a CM in the EG-verse pretty much an impossibility.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#47316: Nov 13th 2015 at 10:02:48 PM

[up]Alternate Reality? I thought it was confirmed somewhere that the FIM-verse and EG-verse were in the same continuity?

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#47317: Nov 13th 2015 at 10:12:26 PM

[up] Hence "in-universe"; the EG dimension is a parallel dimension to the main world.

Also, on another note, I've rewritten the 456 to make it more clear that it's not the entire group that counts.

  • The Ambassador is a member of a race of Starfish Aliens called the 456 who incorporate prepubescent children into their physiology, as their bodies produce hormones that act as euphoric drugs to the 456. The children are kept as perpetually-childlike human reefers, one child shown as having been rendered hairless and immobile as a result of forty years of being used as a drug by the 456. After initial negotiations under falsely benevolent pretenses in 1965, the Ambassador returns in 2009 and bargains with the British government to take ten percent of the world's children under the threat of wiping out all humanity; to prove its power, the Ambassador unleashes a lethal virus throughout the Thames House that leads to the death of almost everyone inside, including Ianto Jones. Although only one member of the 456 is ever seen, the Ambassador shows itself to be exempt from Blue-and-Orange Morality, and expresses callous disregard for the living beings it is harvesting. The Ambassador is reflective of Torchwood's darker nature as one of the most disgustingly evil villains to ever come out of the Doctor Who universe.

edited 13th Nov '15 10:27:11 PM by Scraggle

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#47318: Nov 13th 2015 at 10:12:37 PM

[up] [up] They are in the same continuity but it's an in-universe Alternate Reality that Pony!Twilight and Spike travel to in the first two movies. What Midnight Sparkle was even doing was opening gates to other worlds and realities and trying to obliterate them all.

edited 13th Nov '15 10:13:55 PM by ANewMan

DuelMark Since: Mar, 2011
#47319: Nov 13th 2015 at 10:23:00 PM

Hey, I noticed on the Western Animation page for CM. There's two that stand out. Because instead of having a ":" they each have "has".

I apologize if this spoils for anyone who hasn't seen these.

Captain Planet and the Planeteers has Verminous Skumm. While the other eco-villains were too much of a caricature to be scary, this doesn't apply to this disgusting rat-thing, whose actions are usually portrayed in a much worse light than those of the other villains. "Mind Pollution" had him peddling mind-affecting drugs to teenagers (one of which was Linka's cousin Boris, who died as an indirect consequence of his intoxication) just for the joy of ruining their lives and those of their friends and families. "A Formula for Hate" had him harassing, Todd Andrews, a kid who's HIV positive and spread lies about AIDS just because the kid's an easy target. Another episode has him trying to force toxic food down the captured Planeteers' mouths to kill them in a needlessly and horrifically painful way. "If It's Doomsday, This Must Be Belfast" has him planting a nuclear bomb in Jerusalem's Temple Mount, baiting an Israeli or a Palestinian to set it off (as well as bringing nukes into The Troubles and apartheid South Africa).

Barnyard has Dag, the leader of the pack of coyotes. Unlike the other coyotes who kill for food, Dag seems to get more out of killing than he probably should. This is shown when he shows a group of chickens his chain which has severed chicken legs on it. When faced with Otis's father Ben, he murders him and then shames Otis by telling him that his father would've survived had he been there for him. He then makes a compromise with Otis that stated that he and his pack of coyotes could get a couple of animals every night, and if Otis didn't comply, Dag and his coyotes would personally slaughter everything in the farm that Otis held dear, including possibly the farmer. He then tries to spitefully eat the young chick Maddy just because she called him a "meaner."

I'm wondering why these are like this instead of the rest. Was this just something no one ever brought up? Because I didn't find anything. I think they should look more like this.

Captain Planet and the Planeteers: While most of the eco-villains were too much of a caricature to be scary, this doesn't apply to the disgusting rat-thing that is Verminous Skumm, whose actions are usually portrayed in a much worse light than those of the other villains. "Mind Pollution" had him peddling mind-affecting drugs to teenagers (one of which was Linka's cousin Boris, who died as an indirect consequence of his intoxication) just for the joy of ruining their lives and those of their friends and families. "A Formula for Hate" had him harassing, Todd Andrews, a kid who's HIV positive and spread lies about AIDS just because the kid's an easy target. Another episode has him trying to force toxic food down the captured Planeteers' mouths to kill them in a needlessly and horrifically painful way. "If It's Doomsday, This Must Be Belfast" has him planting a nuclear bomb in Jerusalem's Temple Mount, baiting an Israeli or a Palestinian to set it off (as well as bringing nukes into The Troubles and apartheid South Africa). Overall, while the other villains are obsessed with environmental destruction for their own benefits, Skumm is a sadist who delights in hurting others for laughs.

Barnyard: Dag is the sadistic leader of a pack of coyotes. Unlike the other coyotes who kill for food, he seems to enjoy killing his victim more than eating them. This is shown when he shows a group of chickens his chain which has severed chicken legs on it. When faced with Otis's father Ben, he murders him and then shames Otis by telling him that his father would've survived had he been there for him. He then makes a compromise with Otis that stated that he and his pack of coyotes could get a couple of animals every night, and if Otis didn't comply, Dag and his coyotes would personally slaughter everything in the farm that Otis held dear, including possibly the farmer. This deal was just a trick to keep Otis busy while he and his pack kidnap the hens as well as the chick Maddy. He then tries to spitefully eat the latter just because she called him a "meaner." Murderous and needlessly cruel, Dag is completely out of place in an otherwise lighthearted film.

The last part with Dag I added a bit more, and the last sentence emphasizing how evil is because I kind of like those sentences that most Complete Monster descriptions end with.

So, is it alright to change these?

Edit: Added a last line to Skumm, again, because I like sentences like these at the end.

edited 13th Nov '15 11:25:05 PM by DuelMark

"Sam Manson is a terrible character."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#47320: Nov 13th 2015 at 10:54:50 PM

So, I saw the Boruto film, and I gotta say...Momoshiki, the villain, has way more of a personality than Kaguya. He doesn't get up to too much, but he has two moments that have such massively high attempted bodycounts that I think it pushes him over the edge

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#47321: Nov 13th 2015 at 11:16:26 PM

I'll do the rewrites and the new entries in 2 different batches. And FYI, my cold feels a bit better now anyway (yes, it's about 2:15, but I went to sleep at around 4-5!).
Oh, and tentative [tup] Lester Turner.
Edit: Scratch that; I'll just do 1 batch; there are only 3-4 new entries anyway (Roth, Skull, and the 1 or 2 from Witch Hunter).

edited 14th Nov '15 12:29:06 AM by ACW

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#47322: Nov 14th 2015 at 2:31:36 AM

[up] Don't forgot Anathos in terms of the new entries, if we're submitting him.

edited 14th Nov '15 2:32:02 AM by Scraggle

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#47323: Nov 14th 2015 at 3:04:48 AM

If he had been definitely approved, I'll include him.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#47325: Nov 14th 2015 at 6:04:23 AM

For Rurouni.Kenshin, I have these quotes, mostly coming from Kin-E Udo:

Jin-E Udo: "Don't look at me like that, Battosai. Your eyes were much better before...when you said you were going to kill me. A hitokiri is a hitokiri until death. Another hitokiri tells you this. It cannot be wrong. Keep playing at "rurouni." I'll watch you... from Hell.

Kenshin: Jin-e, are you watching from hell? Even if "hitokiri" is this one's nature, nature shall be surpressed. "Rurouni" this one shall be, until this one's very death.

Or:

"Blood...Not enough...There is not enough blood!"

"Those who bathe in blood...should be praised!"

"If I take you hostage, it would enrage Battosai. Rage makes one return to the way of killing." (for context, he's saying this to Kaoru).

BTW, I decided to drop Belial, mostly because he didn't receive enough votes.

edited 14th Nov '15 6:08:27 AM by AustinDR


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