During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Okay after taking a break at everyone's request I've thought it over and I beg of you to reconsider Veran. I've been disingenuous about heinous standard in the past because I admittedly didn't understand it well. I pretended I did and I feel awful that it's caused you all to have a seething dislike and distrust of me. However that does not change the fact that I genuinely want to change and with this change I hope to become a better person and better troper overall. Veran's no mere dog kicker, though her resources aren't as much as Zant, she still passes the heinous standard by poisoning an entire ocean full of sentient creatures that's treated as fatal to some creatures. The reason the people of Labrynna don't seem affected is simply because they've got other problems and they probably get water through a well or something. That doesn't change the fact living sentient creatures like the Zoras and Tokay live near this toxin and are affected by it. It's far from harmless as King Zora is a casualty of it. Veran wasn't ordered to do any of her deeds except spread sorrow. That's honestly like saying Zant was under Ganondorf's orders to destroy Hyrule when really he merely gave him his power and told him to do whatever. Please don't let my past stop you from forgiving me and taking my new examples seriously. I screwed up with Slash but I'll try not to do it again now that I understand the heinous standard better.
edited 13th Nov '15 12:07:07 AM by Klavice
There's a reason I'm abstaining instead of voting against her - she sounds like at least a possibility. But your track record really is quite poor, and honestly that post still doesn't give me a lot of confidence that it's improving (there's still multiple whataboutisms referring to Zant, for one thing). If someone else is willing to provide a second opinion on Veran, I'll vote, but not until then.
edited 12th Nov '15 11:21:14 PM by nrjxll
Poisoning an ocean isn't heinous enough? Really? Maybe in Flame of Recca or Berserk or something where just killing people isn't enough, but this is Zelda we're talking about. A series where the worst the Big Bad did was try to feed an entire race to a dragon, freeze another race (Harmlessly, unlike Zant), and destroy a prosperous castle town. Also someone else did provide a second opinion on Veran a few pages back, and Hamburger Time did as well. Oh and she didn't just poison the ocean but erupted a volcano and had multiple people killed.
edited 12th Nov '15 11:49:14 PM by Klavice
Oh, for the...Klavice, tone matters in a work. Poisoning an ocean is heinous in Star Wars Legacy when we see every living thing around die horribly. Permit me to doubt that is even remotely the same in a hand held Zelda game.
So, no, I'm not prepared to believe that she poisoned an ocean in a sense that was dealt with remotely the right seriousness.
edited 12th Nov '15 11:48:41 PM by Lightysnake
Oh its played straight alright. The Zoras are all sick and most are dead by the present including King Zora. They even state they will die if the water stayed poisoned. The Fairy outright states every living thing will perish. So what if it doesn't happen on screen, we do see death and that should be enough.
To be fair though it's an E rated Gameboy game. Star Wars shows a lot more, so that's kind of like comparing two completely different genres of music. She's as heinous as she can be in an E rated Gameboy title. Most Gameboy titles back then didn't have murder in them and the ones that did were rated T or above. Times have changed.
Also I read Master Samus's effortpost on the villain from The Crystal Bearers and I think he doesn't qualify. Granted he's probably the most heinous character in the Crystal Chronicles subseries with the exception of Larkeicus, he has to contend with characters who have destroyed worlds and in some cases entire galaxies. I doubt he stands out no matter how bad he is.
edited 13th Nov '15 12:05:32 AM by Klavice
BTW, ACW, I had placed the two writeups for the Witch Queen and Belial on The Last Witch Hunter.YMMV page.
Honestly... I'm going to
Veran. I see no proof of her having actually killed anybody, and while she does cause a lot of destruction to the land, it seems that it's played within the borders of family-friendly and she otherwise only engages in basic villainy.
And honestly, Klavice, stressing over this isn't helping matters.
For Kamen Rider, how about this quote?:
->"He really is a devil!"
—>—Gou Shijima about Tenjuro Banno, Kamen Rider Drive, "Who Loves Heart the Most?"
edited 13th Nov '15 7:33:17 AM by ACW
Very well then. At least we voted on her.
And
is in the lead now. 4 keep and 6 or 7 cut. So I guess she's a no. Oh well.
I'm not going to suggest any more examples for a while..I thought Veran did enough in the game despite it being E rated, what with poisoning an ocean and all, in a handheld Zelda title, but it looks like she doesn't. At least I still have Zant.
By the way, was Heinrich von Raitenau cut? I heard most of my recent proposals were voted against so I'm wondering if Heinrich was cut too in the off chance someone found a redeeming quality in him. I have no idea why he'd be cut otherwise but I'd just like to know if he's still there.
I'm calm, don't worry. I'm not going to get angry or anything. I'm tempermental sure but I can control my emotions for the most part.
The genericness mostly came from him having so little screentime, so he didn't get developed nearly as much as the villains in other games in the series. Which ended up being changed in the remake.
Anyways, here's two quick quotes I can remember off the top of my head
"Yes... Give me that look, Kyle! I've trembled, I've longed to see that look full of rage! Show me your urge to kill! You're next! You will quench my thirst for blood!" - Barbatos Goetia, Tales of Destiny 2
"Hugo was always concerned about you... While I was controlling him, you were always in the back of his mind. That man was constantly thinking of you... He didn't want to be the one to kill you. I always laughed at his pathetic concerns! ... Are you prepared, Rutee Katret? Hugo Gilchrist's beloved daughter!" - Miktran, Tales of Destiny (PS 2)
Oissu!Are there any more votes for Belial?
Anyway, I was thinking that Slappy's entry needed a little editing.
- Slappy, the main antagonist of the Night of the Living Dummy saga, is a ventriloquist dummy that comes to life whenever the spell that accompanies him is read aloud. He would turn his owner's family against them, which ultimately culminates in him trying to convert the family, preferably the female protagonists, into his slaves. In Bride of the Living Dummy, he held a group of children celebrating a birthday party hostage, and he threatened to murder everyone in the room if he didn't receive his bride. He orders Jillian, the preteen protagonist of the book, to be his bride, only to violently hit her when she refused. The book also revealed that Slappy was crafted from a coffin by an evil sorcerer who then transferred his evil influence into the dummy. Under the threat of death in Slappy's Nightmare, Slappy gets forced into performing three good deeds; however, he does contemplate killing his new owner and her family when he thought that she was picking up on him. Though it turned out to be a dream, it's made clear that he wouldn't think twice about murdering anyone when it suits his needs. In addition to this, Slappy had attempted to murder several characters throughout the saga, one notable example being in Slappy New Year in which he tried to decapitate a young boy with a pair of garden shears. Sadistic, cruel, and disturbing, Slappy struck fear in the hearts of many.
edited 14th Nov '15 8:02:34 AM by AustinDR

Pretty much, yup.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."