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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#47101: Nov 9th 2015 at 3:33:03 PM

Actually, I don't remember that bit. Given his hatred of Bob's attitude lately, could it be taunting?

Also, not wanting to commit incest doesn't strike me as a moral standard automatically

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#47102: Nov 9th 2015 at 3:36:20 PM

Possibly could be taunting; not sure. I'll grant you the incest part, if that is indeed what Penny meant; though maybe he's some kind of Family-Values Villain, Bob aside?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#47103: Nov 9th 2015 at 3:42:31 PM

It is possible...though Churchill and Penny I think are still obvious keepers.

Regarding the alien in Caliban, there's an element of scientific curiosity to it, and experimentation, but's made explicitly clear it enjoys hurting others as well, and does a lot of unnecessarily horrible things.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#47104: Nov 9th 2015 at 3:53:17 PM

[up] Definitely. Churchill actually comes off as the least bad of the 3 (though still counting) to me.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#47105: Nov 9th 2015 at 4:46:32 PM

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention Veran did cause a volcanic eruption to destroy an entire town on screen (well we see the effects of it), poisoned an entire ocean, and made everyone work on the Black Tower including children, so there's that. But I don't think she does enough to be a contender even then. She's still very horrible and honestly if Zelda didn't have such a high heinous standard, I would actually give her an effortpost.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#47106: Nov 9th 2015 at 4:58:55 PM

[up] You "forgot to mention?"

Klavice, when was the last time you actually played the Oracle games? Because... I don't think many people would forget small things like poisoning an entire ocean.

edited 9th Nov '15 5:11:44 PM by Scraggle

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#47107: Nov 9th 2015 at 5:34:31 PM

Err... it's been awhile (2 years) since I completely played it but since she poisoned the ocean and destroyed an entire village I think she's done enough to be a contender. My memory isn't as good as it used to be, but I think her poisoning an ocean filled with sentient creatures and destroying a village sends her way over the Moral Event Horizon.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#47108: Nov 9th 2015 at 5:34:33 PM

I definitely remember the ocean-poisoning, but I can't recall if Veran did that, or if it was a threat independent of her.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#47109: Nov 9th 2015 at 5:45:01 PM

I played that part of the game just now and the Fairy Queen said "Veran placed a curse on me and this ocean." or "The Black Tower's construction caused this curse." or something to that effect. It's definitely not implied.

That alone might be enough.

edited 9th Nov '15 5:48:45 PM by Klavice

Animeking1108 Since: Jan, 2010
#47110: Nov 9th 2015 at 6:03:03 PM

There are two previously cut examples that needed more detail as to exactly why they qualified.

  • Chuck De Nomolos from Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey. Even as a villain in a comedy movie, he's mostly played straight. In the B&T universe, Wyld Stallyns became a band that caused world peace. However, he wants to prevent the utopia they created from happening. He sends two evil robot doppelgangers of the titular duo back in time to kill them. You'd think that'd be enough to accomplish his plan, but he goes the extra mile: he also wanted them to take over their lives and ruin them. The Evil Robot Usses (as Bill and Ted call them) were programmed to be sadistically evil by De Nomolos. Not only did they kill the duo, but they tried twice to kill animals and then their girlfriends, Elizabeth and Joanne. Of course, that could have the ERU qualify, but remember; that was how De Nomolos programmed them. When the ERU fail, he decides to go back in time and try to take care of them himself. The whole reason why he was even doing what he did throughout the movie wasn't anything personal or something he found wrong with the Utopian society. He only wanted to prevent Wyld Stallyns from becoming the heroes they were was so that he could spread his own philosophies for narcissistic reasons. The only thing this guy had that was close to a redeeming quality was an end credits gag with him getting married to Missy, but even fellow Monsters like Ozai and King Bradley (2003 version) were married too.

  • Sekto from Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath. Compared to most Oddworld villains, he was more prominent in the story. Before the start of the game, he either hunted the Steeves to near extinction or hired bounty hunters to do it for him. Genocide in the Oddworld games is nothing new, but Molluck and the Vykkers attempted their crimes for business. Sekto, on the other hand, did what he did For the Evulz with a little hint of racism towards the Steeves. Also, unlike Molluck and the Vyykers, Sekto was successful with his goal, since there is no indication of any other Steeves in the game. Killing the Steeves was technically Offscreen Villainy, but to really drive the point, he has multiple Steef heads spread around his office as hunting trophies. To make sure every last Steef was taken care of, he set out a hefty bounty for anybody that can bring him a Steef head. This leads to the Stranger being exposed as a Steef and run out of society. After forming Sekto Springs, he drove the Grubbs away from the rivers. He would kill any trespassers and leave their corpses strung up on display in certain areas in the game to set an example. All the Grubbs wanted with the river was to go fishing, which wouldn't have interfered with his bottled water company. They most likely didn't need the water for drinking, otherwise there would have been a lot of Grubbs dead from dehydration. After the Stranger gets exposed as a Steef, Sekto sends an army of Wolvargs to attack a small Grubb village to lure him out. When that fails, he sends another army to the city of Lastlegs and kidnaps the Grubb chief, Frayda Evryting, to lure him out. Before the final battle begins, Sekto vowed that after killing the Stranger, he implied that he would go after the Grubbs next. After the Stranger defeats him, we learn that he was actually a parasitic octopus-like being and that for years, he took control over the Olden Steef, the last guardian of the Grubbs. It wasn't clear exactly how the Olden Steef died. It was either from Sekto latching on to him for so long or from the injuries he sustained from the final battle. However, judging by his last words( asking if the water was free), he was lucid while Sekto controlled him (unless he controlled other Steeves when he built his damn, which adds another level of interpretation). As mentioned before, Sekto was motivated by prejudice rather than greed, he had a little more prominence than the other Oddworld villains, and he was pretty much successful with his genocide. He's definitely a step up from the usual Corrupt Corporate Executive the series usually dished out.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#47111: Nov 9th 2015 at 6:36:30 PM

I've got evidence if you aren't convinced I'm telling the truth. I played that part again due to complications with my computer and emulator and got a screenshot of the quote in question. I'll edit this post with the picture in a second.

[1]

and

[2]

For those who don't want to click those the quote is: "The curse of an evil one named Veran has caused me to appear so." "Veran has poisoned the ocean. Soon, all living things will perish!"

And Veran was not ordered to do any of this, she simply wanted to kill the Zoras because of the essence they could have given Link which would have helped defeated her. Sound familiar? Only unlike Ganondorf, Veran has no such excuse, nor is she made of evil.

This proves it was Veran who caused the curse/poison on the ocean so that should be enough (coupled with her other numerous atrocities) for her to be a contender. Probably will do an effortpost shortly.

edited 9th Nov '15 6:56:17 PM by Klavice

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#47112: Nov 9th 2015 at 7:05:27 PM

Look as much as I hate beating a dead horse and bringing up old subjects, I also prefer tying loose ends when I can. So taking Jim Rennie Junior into account from when he was first wrote up and reevaluated, I'm listing all the yay and nay votes regarding him.

Yay votes; Myself, Ravok, ST 89, Overlord

Nay votes; Very Melon, Ocassional Exister, De Carta, and I think I remember Lighty leaning to nay.

So four against four. I could use a few more deciding votes. I really want this matter settled. If you are annoyed that I kept bringing him up, I can assure you it's just as annoying on my end, but loose ends are a pet peeve of mine.

His original effortpost is here.

To influence the final votes, I'll list arguments on both sides.

Nay vote arguments; he had redeeming and sympathetic qualities in the first two seasons and was initially sympathetic before he became more monsterous. He also became monsterous due to being infected by an alien parasite, which complicates the matter if he was himself.

Yay vote arguments; Junior was also villainous the first two seasons despite his redeeming qualities. Junior joined the infection of his own volition but wasn't as brainwashed as the others. He was subconsciously on the path to corruption anyways, and wanted power and respect, and once he got it it got to his head, and he makes it clear that he doesn't care for the kinship, but just wants to be and control and kill you if you defy him.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#47113: Nov 9th 2015 at 7:25:58 PM

Should we put YHVH from Shin Megami Tensei II as a CM?

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#47114: Nov 9th 2015 at 7:26:32 PM

Alright, the moment you've been waiting for, an effortpost on Veran, Sorceress of Shadows.

Who is she?

Veran is the mastermind behind all the evil in Oracle of Ages. Though she was helping Twinrova bring back Ganon, Veran nevertheless had her own agenda all of which was not ordered, she was merely given the order to "spread sorrow throughout the land". She, as stated before is a powerful sorceress who sought to control time. To do so, she possessed the Oracle of Ages to obtain her time manipulating powers, and later Queen Ambi. While Twinrova is ultimately the Bigger Bad, Veran has her own agenda and is the Big Bad in a "normal" playthrough.

What has she done?

Hoo boy. First she possessed Impa so she could get Link to break a barrier stone, and then possess Nayru, the Oracle of Ages. She then travelled to the past and messed things up to cause a Time Crash, first making a bunch of monkeys "disappear", petrifying a young boy, then spreading discord throughout the land by causing a volcano to erupt destroying an entire prosperous village, and cracking the one thing that kept the balance of the village intact, caused an avalanche burying the Goron Elder underneath bedrock. But she really starts crossing the Moral Event Horizon after possessing Queen Ambi starting with poisoning the entire ocean which would have caused everyone who drank the water to die or get severely ill. King Zora actually did get ill, no less and transforming the only fairy who can purify the waters into an Octorok so she would be killed by a passerby. Then she petrifies a boy's father, petrifies a bunch of rabbits, and when confronted, reveals Ambi is the ancestor of the Oracle's friend, Ralph meaning if she were killed, Ralph would die as well. She planned to do this with Nayru as well, gloating as Ralph gave up and laughing at him. Thankfully, Link found a way around this. Her ultimate goal was no less than the complete and utter destruction of Labrynna and deliver the land to Ganon so he could rule over it, though there are some hints she was planning on usurping Ganon if she had to.

Heinous Standard? This is a tough one. I don't recall any villains in Zelda actually poisoning the ocean, or causing an eruption (Ganondorf almost did in Ocarina but it was a harmless eruption) and she screws with enough people. I'd say pass.

Freudian Excuse or mitigating qualities?

None. She's Faux Affably Evil, but that's about it. There is no excuse for her, nor does she get an Alas, Poor Villain death. If anything, she hates the idea of possibly being redeemed. She's an extremely Vain Sorceress with no redeeming qualities.

Final Thoughts?

I know I've said this for a few examples, but I'm going to say she might count this time. But it's all up to you guys.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#47115: Nov 9th 2015 at 7:30:25 PM

[up][up] YHVH was voted down already as I recall.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#47116: Nov 9th 2015 at 7:31:40 PM

Weren't you the one who found out YHVH had standards Ham?

edited 9th Nov '15 7:31:57 PM by VeryMelon

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#47117: Nov 9th 2015 at 7:38:05 PM

YHVH's standards basically consist of wanting life to be good for His Chosen, but to Hell (literally) with everyone else. You could probably make an argument He's enough of a hypocrite to invalidate it, but He also barely does anything in the game. We voted up the Archangels from the same game because the majority of the conflict is on them, but with YHVH the combination of how little He actually does and the maybe-standards means I'm not comfortable listing Him.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#47119: Nov 9th 2015 at 7:45:58 PM

As for Veran... something I think needs to be mentioned is that everything she does is on the orders of Twinrova, who are, in turn, trying to revive Ganon. I'm not sure she on her own passes the bar due to this.

edited 9th Nov '15 7:46:08 PM by HamburgerTime

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#47120: Nov 9th 2015 at 7:51:01 PM

Twinrova's orders were simply to spread sorrow throughout the land, not how to spread it. Think Kuja and Garland from Final Fantasy IX. You could argue Garland ordered Kuja to start the events of the game, but in reality all he did was give him an airship and let him play. We're never really told just what was an order and what wasn't, only that she was helping Twinrova revive Ganon. It's as vague as Zant, and vague enough I think she could still count.

Also, a minion can still qualify if they are especially sadistic about their duties. Like Judge Bergan wasn't the Big Bad of Final Fantasy XII and most of what he did was on orders of Vayne, but he was still heinous enough on his own.

edited 9th Nov '15 7:54:39 PM by Klavice

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#47121: Nov 9th 2015 at 8:15:58 PM

So I read the writeup for Junior Rennie.

.......Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Kay. Clearly I missed some stuff.

I'm leaning towards a [tdown] for him. I've only seen Season 1 and the first half of Season 2 of the show. Is it explained why Junior let himself get infected by the alien virus? Did he know his personality would be changed that way?

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#47123: Nov 9th 2015 at 10:36:54 PM

[tdown] Veran. Don't know why, but I'm still not quite convinced she counts.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#47124: Nov 9th 2015 at 11:21:49 PM

Okay, Sekto needs to be cut by at LEAST 1/3.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#47125: Nov 10th 2015 at 12:04:13 AM

@A New Man: She poisoned a ocean, not a river, an ocean. People drink from that, the animals in the ocean are all sentient (Zoras), she's killed several characters. I think she easily passes the heinous standard. Is it just because I proposed her? Why don't we talk about Twinrova if you guys don't think Veran is bad enough? Twinrova wouldn't count as a group because as Ocarina of Time shows, they are really one person. And she's got enough personality that she's not a Generic Doomsday villain.

I was pretty sure you were against Zant when I proposed him, and if not, Zant didn't poison an ocean and kill several sentient creatures. We're not talking about Muruta Azrael, but she does damage on a grand scale. She's killed and attempted to kill plenty of characters, (how about a whole forest of monkeys, the King Zora who was only saved because of time travel, the villagers of Symmetry City and others) turned others to stone, threatened lives. And again, she poisoned an ocean, caused a time crash, and did more horrible things. And you still don't think that's enough?

edited 10th Nov '15 12:06:32 AM by Klavice


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