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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#47051: Nov 8th 2015 at 2:43:43 PM

[up] He massacred an entire police station. He also experimented on people to try and create evil in it's purest form. He made Michael what he was, and if it wasn't for him, Michael never would have killed anyone.

Wynn can't count in the producer's cut because in that version, he actually takes the religion seriously, and is a W.I.E.

edited 8th Nov '15 3:21:03 PM by bobg

jjj
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#47052: Nov 8th 2015 at 3:18:09 PM

Shouldn't the Murder in Coweta County and Gramps examples be on Monster.Film instead on Monster.Live Action TV?

edited 8th Nov '15 3:18:39 PM by DemonDuckofDoom

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#47053: Nov 8th 2015 at 4:56:27 PM

[tup] Wynn in the theatrical cut. It sounds like he commits sufficiently heinous actions, lacks redeeming qualities, and is positioned in the narrative (at least if Loomis is to be believed) as truly evil and monstrous by the story's standards.

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#47054: Nov 8th 2015 at 5:35:42 PM

Wynn's character is actually quite a little bit different between the theatrical release and the producer's cut.

Producer's cut version: leader of a cult of druids (the cult of Thorn) who follow the practice of the festival of Samhain (much like Conal Cochran from the third film). Their methods involve the Curse Of Thorn. In the time of the Druids, to prevent mass death among the tribes, one family was chosen to bear the curse. This curse would require the bearer to sacrificially murder his or her entire family on the night of Samhain (All Hallow's Eve), which in turn would spare their community from disastrous events such as plague and drought. The curse also appears to give the cursed inhuman strength and immunity from death. Wynn and his group have decided to start using Thorn in the modern age, cursing people to kill their families in the belief that it will better the community. Michael was their first bearer, and after he was done killing his family, they would move onto the next person.

Theatrical release: Leader of a group of mad doctors that wanted to harvest the power of Thorn to "create evil in it's purest form". They seek to do this because... Potatos]. They decided to curse someone (Michael) with Thorn so they could create an extremely evil person and then use their DNA for experiments on their patients. After Michael escaped custody in the first film before Wynn could smuggle him into his groups location, Wynn spent most of the series hunting for Michael. After shooting out the police station and freeing Michael, he took him to his cult's lair and began using his DNA on the female patients. When this failed, he decided he needed to perform the procedure on one of Michael's relatives. The reason Michael turns on the cult is likely because he realized they were not actually following Thorn and were realy just trying to control him.

jjj
OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#47055: Nov 8th 2015 at 5:43:04 PM

@46996: My issue is that since it's implied Elijah is still happy and proud that Veronica's alive, then that would mean he hasn't lost that redeeming quality yet.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#47056: Nov 8th 2015 at 6:14:11 PM

I kinda noticed something, Hal from Mega Mind was briefly brought up as a potential CM several hundred of pages back, but I don't think he was discussed in any real way. Can Mega Mind have a CM or is it too silly?

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=552#13798

Also [tup] to Wynn and Red Skull (man that animated movie with Red Skull looked really bad).

edited 8th Nov '15 6:14:25 PM by Overlord

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#47057: Nov 8th 2015 at 6:20:47 PM

I don't think Hal would count. Outside of massive property damage and attempted murder, he doesn't do anything that heinous. He's an entitled creep with an inferiority complex, but not a monster. He also calls out Megamind for lying to "space step-mom".

[tup] For Theatrical!Wynn.

edited 8th Nov '15 6:38:24 PM by chasemaddigan

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#47058: Nov 8th 2015 at 6:23:43 PM

[up]He did endanger quite a bit of lives with his rampage through the city. Though he's too goofy to truly count.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#47059: Nov 8th 2015 at 6:31:30 PM

Yeah [tdown] to Hal. While he is a serious threat, he is too much a goofball and doesnt even become that evil.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#47060: Nov 8th 2015 at 7:13:09 PM

This discussion on the Halloween villain makes me wonder something that might be controversial. In both versions of the movie, Michael Myers is the product of the curse of Thorn to be a being of pure evil. Let's seriously think about this for a second, since it seems like Michael may have a moral agency issue. If the curse doesn't flat at make him Made of Evil, at the very least it seems like he would have been a normal child without the curse. I realize people on this forum really wouldn't want such an iconic Complete Monster removed, but it's our responsibility to discuss if Michael fails on moral agency standards. If the movie is considered canon, then we may very well have to cut Michael Myers from the Complete Monster page.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#47061: Nov 8th 2015 at 7:17:13 PM

The thing is, though, Halloween continuity is, at best, a difficult thing. After Halloween 2, the canon diverges enormously with 4, 5 and 6 being their own thing, and H20 being a new film in a new timeline that only includes 1 and 2.

And that even supposes we take the 4-6 films as canon with 1 when Carpenter wasn't involved.

edited 8th Nov '15 7:32:16 PM by Lightysnake

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#47062: Nov 8th 2015 at 7:19:16 PM

Yeah definite [tdown] to Hal. Not only he fails the heinous standard, he is actually kinda sympathetic.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#47063: Nov 8th 2015 at 7:24:50 PM

Not exactly, we've discussed Michael's agency before. Had Michael been placed under the thorn cults control curse before hand, chances are the cult cursed him in advance, but Wynn explains that Loomis was the first recognized the evil in Michael, before the Thorn cult started using him, meaning Michael was already a cold blooded sociopath. The curse is said to drive people to sacrifice their family, but Michael goes out of his way to kill innocent people in his way with subtle hints of sadism. Of course expanded universe goes into detail of Michael's curse, but its not considered canon. It should be noted the series splits into two separate timelines; following the sixth movie, we are taking into an alternate third movie that ignores the previous ones - Michael not under any curse and is back to the killer he was on his own. Even in both versions of the sixth film, Michael ultimately turns against the cult in his massacre, showing that either version of Michael isn't driven by any form of control. For all we know he might not take the thorn religion seriously either.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#47064: Nov 8th 2015 at 7:25:56 PM

While the curse of Thorn isn't an issue in the new continuity, the original continuity has Michael being affected by/a product of the curse so we still have to take it into consideration. We can't simply sweep it under the rug because Michael is currently an iconic example of Complete Monster.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#47065: Nov 8th 2015 at 7:33:00 PM

So he doesn't count in the Thorn continuity maybe. I don't think that's relevant to the original film or Carpenter's sequels.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#47066: Nov 8th 2015 at 7:33:46 PM

I guess it's a matter of perspective. To be fair we've had C Ms that may or may not have had moral agency issues, King Ghidorah being my best example because half the time he's brainwashed.

Again the curse issue is more explained in the expanded universe which almost is never considered canon. And they are not always consistent; one explaination is the curse strengthens Michael with every kill. I agree that the curse issue is a stick in the mud for Michael counting, however we have somthing in his CM entry regarding the curse; In that same movie, it was initially believed he was under the control of an evil cult, but he proves his evil is beyond anyone's control when he massacres them too.

edited 8th Nov '15 7:49:20 PM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#47067: Nov 8th 2015 at 7:43:53 PM

Although? Whenever Big King G isn't, he's even worse

edited 8th Nov '15 7:45:23 PM by Lightysnake

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#47068: Nov 8th 2015 at 9:00:19 PM

Leaning [tup] on Theatrical!Wynn.

Hell NO on Hal. Nowhere near heinous enough.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#47069: Nov 8th 2015 at 9:02:53 PM

[up] I was just asking whether Mega Mind was too goofy to a CM (it seems like it is), I wasn't doing a full proposal on Hal. I have not seen the movie in 5 years, so I would have to rewatch it if I wanted to do a full proposal.

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#47070: Nov 8th 2015 at 9:25:00 PM

Hal is more evil then Megamind, but not evil enough to qualify.

Basically he's a Psychopathic Man Child version of Jimmy Olsen with super powers.

He's also kinda pathetic, and the movie doesn't imply he's irredeemable.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#47071: Nov 8th 2015 at 10:03:12 PM

I actually wasn't proposing Veran (I have my doubts that anyone from Zelda can qualify except Zant and Yuga as they all bend to Ganon and as long as Ganon is more heinous than them, they don't count) I only brought her up because I don't recall us talking about how she stacks with Ganon, Yuga, Majora, and Zant. Zant was only added because he does more than Ganon in his game. Veran frankly would have to blow up Labrynna and kill millions in order to compete with Ganon, as he's killed millions on screen in almost every game he's been in.

Makes me wonder if we should axe Yuga and Zant because Ganon kind of eclipses them in every way. Ganon caused Hyrule to be completely destroyed in one game, Yuga didn't do nearly that much damage.

And yeah, definite no to Hal, the villain in Megamind. We really need a rule that comedic works can't have a Complete Monster because most of the time (unless it gets as dark as Courage the Cowardly Dog) they can't.

edited 8th Nov '15 10:13:13 PM by Klavice

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#47072: Nov 8th 2015 at 10:07:28 PM

[up] Zant is sufficiently heinous enough with his resources and motivations, and Yuga was denied the chance to ravage the world as much as Ganon did because he was killed before he could - doesn't change the intent and attempt that was made.

And you make it sound like Megamind was proposed rather than the villain from Mega Mind.

[tdown] Hal. He's an insane jerk, but like a less malicious Syndrome, and the movie indicates he could be rehabilitated in prison in the end.

edited 8th Nov '15 10:08:46 PM by ANewMan

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#47073: Nov 8th 2015 at 10:09:14 PM

Klavice, not meaning to be rude, but I think this is the third time you've changed gears on Zant...you argued to cut him, then argued to put him back on and now you want to cut him again.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#47074: Nov 8th 2015 at 10:10:44 PM

[up][up]That's what I thought. Villains don't necessarily have to have amassed great power and wealth in order to be horrible. Honestly, I feel Yuga was made from what the original idea for Zant was, someone so evil, they would eventually absorb Ganon and become even worse.

Edit: I was just seeing if everyone would still defend his inclusion.

edited 8th Nov '15 10:11:28 PM by Klavice

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#47075: Nov 8th 2015 at 10:18:17 PM

Okay, so it's been two weeks since The Last Witch Hunter was released. I feel like now's the time to propose the Witch Queen and another antagonist. First, the Witch Queen.

Who is she?

Hundreds of years prior to the main plot of the film, the Witch Queen created the Black Death as a means of eradicating the human race. This ended up killing millions of people, including Kaulder's wife and daughter. Anyway, Kaulder and his team go to slay the Queen to avenge their fallen family members, but she kills most of them effortlessly. As it looked like she would finally be killed, she shoves her arm into Kaulder's chest, cursing him to live forever. She then "dies."

Years later, Belial, a rebel warlock, tries to revive his Queen so that the world could return to the way it was. In a twist, it is revealed that the Witch Queen's heart survived destruction, and that the Dolans had kept it a secret from Kaulder for all these years. Belial eventually retrieves the heart, and he sacrifices Schlesinger, a blind merchant who served as Kaulder's link to the witch underground, so that the Queen could become reborn.

The Witch Queen is revived, and she attempts to recreate the plague by releasing swarms of black flies onto the public. The 37th Dolan betrays Chloe and Kaulder (he was really working for the witches the entire time), and he goes to her, and he demands that she grant him with magical powers. The Witch Queen, of course, kills him (but not before telling him that without magical powers, he was just a human). She intended to use the chants of the witches that were locked in the prison as a means of acquiring enough power to release the swarms of flies onto humanity (she had also murdered all of the members of the Witch Council). When Chloe dream kills one of the witches, thus cutting his link to the chant, the Witch Queen instead uses her as a means of finishing the chant. She also psychologically torments Kaulder for his failures, and they engage in a final battle. She gets defeated again, and her heart is sealed away.

Freudian Excuse

None. She only sees other witches as tools that she can manipulate to meet her whims.

And now for the other antagonist:

Who is he?

Belial, otherwise known as Baltasar Ketola, is the secondary antagonist of the film. He was a rebel warlock, with several ties to terrorist organizations. Longing for the days in which the Witch Queen was still in power, he goes about trying to retrieve her heart.

What has he done?

Belial was revealed to have cursed the 36th Dolan as a means of trying to find the whereabouts of the Witch Queen's heart. Later on, he sets Chloe's bar on fire when Kaulder tried to use a memory spell to remember what happened to him when he was first cursed by the Queen. Belial also murders Chloe's friend, Miranda, when they needed her to help them, and he mocks Kaulder about it over her cellphone. Lastly, he sacrifices Schlesinger, a blind merchant, so that the Witch Queen can be revived. He dies with a smile on his face, knowing that the Witch Queen would soon be reborn.

Freudian Excuse?

None whatsoever. He sees the Witch Queen as a physical representation of his Fantastic Racism rather than as a person.

'Heinous in story?

The Witch Queen is the Big Bad of the movie, meaning that she is responsible for nearly everything in the film. The main conflict of the film is the threat of her returning to power. She also has an extremely high body count, and a rather large attempted body count as well.

Belial was responsible for few deaths, but his ultimate goal was to happily assist the Witch Queen in destroying the human race, thus giving him a very large attempted body count.

There are a few more antagonists in the film, though some of them are relatively minor. There was also Ellic, who was a prolific child murderer, but he gets sentenced to prison earlier on, and he was inactive for most of the film.

Conclusion

I feel that both the Witch Queen and Belial count. Thoughts?

edited 8th Nov '15 10:19:42 PM by AustinDR


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