During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
RE: Elementary!Moriarty
The decision was made during Season 2 to put off cutting her because her love for her daughter could also be interpreted as possessive—"how dare they threaten something of mine." Now, if Season 3 has gone and clarified she does care about the kid, that's fine, go ahead and cut her. I haven't watched it, because I stopped giving a damn about that show around the end of Season 2.
for Veran, as she doesn't get any sort of redemption or redeeming features and for the reasons stated earlier in the thread. Just because her goals were generic for the medium aren't enough to disqualify them for being insufficiently heinous for the setting.
EDIT:Oops, didn't mean to put that here.
edited 8th Nov '15 10:44:37 AM by CyberXIII
Also, for the film section, I nominate Dr. Carl Hill from Re-Animator.
Who is he: An amoral doctor, plagiarist and a rapist who makes Herbert West look downright heroic in comparison.
What has he done?
First, he only got his position by stealing the work of other scientists, which is only the first of his crimes. This leads him to steal Herbert West's own reanimation agent, and after West kills him and raises him as a zombie, Hill only gets worse. We find out, and are shown that he has been stalking and compiling a strange file on one of the students at the college he works for. He wants to rape her, and indeed we're shown in horrific detail that he does so despite missing a body, and he does it while she begs for her paralyzed, undead, mind-controlled father to help her.
West and Cain confront him and Hill reveals his next evil—-he's lobotomized Megan's father after he was zombified. In this setting it's shown that the zombies aren't mindless, just in horrific, insane agony with bits of their former minds in place. Megan's father destroys himself trying to save her life, for instance.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?
Dr Hill lacks a Freudian Excuse and has zero redeeming qualities. When his zombies are attacking Megan and Cain attempts to reason with him, saying they'll kill her, Dr. Hill just brushes off his concern with the line "Then I'll give her life!" Meaning he's going to inject her with the reanimation compound and subject her to a fate worst than death.
Heinousness?
Despite the grey morality of the setting, Carl Hill stands out as a sadist—-aside from raping Megan he also plans on cutting West's head open and lobotomizing him while his zombies beat his friends to death. The other characters aren't that sympathetic either but West is not openly malicious despite being a near-sociopath and saves Cain's life more than once. West just wants knowledge more than anything else. Cain is motivated mostly by love and fear for Megan's life. Hill just wants to be famous and is willing to do anything to get there.
Thoughts?
I remember Dr. Hill.
Really gave a dark new meaning to
giving head.
But seriously, the second movie has his head reanimated and Hill bears a grudge against West, as West was responsible for his decapitation; the destruction of his body; taking away Megan, with whom he was obsessed; and having better theories about reanimation than himself. Using hypnotic powers, Hill commands Chapham to force Dr. Graves to stitch bat wings onto his neck, giving him back his mobility. He also extends his mental control to all of the zombie survivors of the Miskatonic Massacre.
At the climax of that movie, Cain and Francesca to retreat through the wall of the lab and into a crypt in the neighboring cemetery. Inside, all of West's prior test subjects arise and make their way towards him, stopping only when Herbert commands them to. The unstable crypt begins to collapse, trapping Hill, West and the zombies. Cain and Francesca manage to escape the debris and claw their way to the surface of the cemetery together. Hill, stuck in the debris, laughs manically.
He doesn't come back in the third.
That all said I'm taking back my previous
for now to take West into account. I remember him being a Villain Protagonist. At best Hill might be another TV!Mason Verger. A disgusting man on his own, but just doesn't pack the punch.
edited 8th Nov '15 11:00:12 AM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."Yeah, I thought about the heinous standard too, but, again, West isn't out just to hurt people or rape people the way Hill is. West is no saint, but he's more of a reckless amoral scientist than Hill's sadistic, greedy sociopath. West saves Cain's life more than once, whereas Hill goes out of his way to be cruel to everyone and has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
So this is a guy I've mentioned this thread before, but discussions about him have gone no where. I'm talking about Terrence Wynn, one of the main antagonists Halloween: The Curse of Michael Myers, along with Michael himself and by extension the secondary antagonist of the series as a whole. Now there are two different versions of the movie, the theatrical one and the producers cut. Since I have the theatrical cut on DVD, I'll be covering this version of Wynn, but if anyone can fill me in on details of the producers cut, I'd appreciate that.
Who is he ? What does he do ?
Dr. Terrence Wynn was a minor character in the first Halloween movie and the administrator of Smiths Grove Sanitarium, and a friend of Dr. Sam Loomis. He is briefly seen in the first movie discussing Michael's breakout with Loomis. In actuality, he is the head of the Thorn Cult, which allegedly has Michael as this Dark Messiah. It is retconned the Wynn helped Michael escape the Sanitarium, leading to Michael's killing spree in the first two movies.
In the fifth movie, Wynn appears in Haddonfield as the enigmatic man in black, as Michael returns one year after his assumed death in the fourth film. Here Wynn actually gives Michael some help as his secret partner in crime, ultimately culminating in Wynn arriving at the police station where Michael is being held, and shooting the place up to spring Michael out. Wynn and Michael then abduct Jamie Loyd.
The sixth movie opens with Jamie, pregnant with presumably Michael's baby, going into labor and having baby Steven. Upon Steven's birth, Wynn takes him and ritualistically marks him. Jamie manages to escape with her baby, but Michael kills her, but doesn't find the baby. Also Jamie wasn't the first to be experimented on by Wynn. It turns out, Wynn has been been secretly using Michael's DNA to create the curse of Thorn in its purest form that he believed manifested in Michael's genes. After failing in DNA and in-vitro fertalization experiments, tested on the female patients of Smith's Grove Sanitarium (and leading to stillborn fetuses), and later Tommy Doyle and Kara Strode come across a high-tech lab room where Kara notices a tank of preserved fetuses; apparently the failures Wynn told Loomis about in regards to creating a child to harness the power of Thorn through DNA testing.
Wynn is visited by Loomis at Smith's Grove, where he credits Loomis for first recognizing Michael's evil. He reveals how Steven is a new cycle of that evil after many failures and is at the "dawn of a new era". He ask Loomis to join him but Loomis instead scolds him for turning Michael into what he is. Loomis is knocked unconscious by Dr. Bonham to keep Loomis from shooting Wynn. Wynn and Bonham then meet up with a cult member and several doctors who are preparing to work on a scientific breakthrough experiment. Michael interrupts the experiment, and a massacre ensues. Wynn's fate is unknown, but apparently an early draft has him being killed in the massacre.
Freudian Excuse or Redeeming Qualities ?
None really, at least in the theatrical version. Wynn is Michael's guardian and accomplice in his killing spree. His reason for doing so in the theatrical cut is that scientific experiments in evil, using the Thorn curse influencing Michael, stating its pure ancient uncorrupted evil. He is using Michael's Thorn curse believing it manifests in his DNA. He isn't a true believer in the Druid cult he seems to lead, in fact he and his followers are using the cult as a cover and a means to their scientific ends. To this end, he helped Michael in his murder sprees, and had his female patients impregnated in his experiments, with no remorse for his actions.
Heinousness
Now it would take a lot to out do the main killer in a slasher franchise in heinousness. Here, Wynn partially shares the heinousness with Michael and indirectly responsible with Michael's body count. He was his mentor and helped him escape in the first movie, setting off the events of the first two. Then he directly helps Michael in his killing spree in the fifth movie and shares a direct Big Bad Duumvirate with Michael in the sixth, where I listed Wynn's independent actions. He and Michael pretty much pose the same threat, the same blood on their hands.
edited 8th Nov '15 12:41:31 PM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."Halloween 6 is one of two Halloween films I have not seen. However from my research, the Producer's Cut has two additional feats for Wynn. The first is that Wynne is the one who kills Jamie and not Michael. Jamie survives Michael's attack and while she's in the hospital, Wynn straight-up shoots her in the head. The second feat is the ending. In the ending, Michael switches clothes with him and when Loomis finds him, Wynn passes the Thorn curse onto Loomis and forces him to become the new cult leader. Also in the Producer's Cut, Wynn and his followers take the whole Cult of Thorn scenario way more seriously.
edited 8th Nov '15 2:29:11 PM by chasemaddigan
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That counts as You Monster!. Not Complete Monster. I'm going to abstain on Wynn since I don't know anything about his resources but he doesn't quite sound as heinous as Myers.

-Mind Rapes Cap into becoming his slave.
-Mind Rapes Taskmaster into becoming his slave.
-Mind Rapes his own minions, wiping their memories in the process.
-Painfully transforms his own minions into basically zombies and warping their minds, and plans to spread the infection worldwide.
edited 8th Nov '15 8:52:48 AM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!