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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#47001: Nov 7th 2015 at 8:44:01 PM

I just watched Masked Avengers, and I have a question about the writeup for Ling Yungzhi: Shouldn't his name be spoilered, since his being leader of the gang was The Reveal?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#47002: Nov 7th 2015 at 8:46:01 PM

[up] Done.
Star Sword: "Repeatedly added her" because she was NEVER disqualified by the thread. She was being deleted, but NEVER, NEVER, NEVER disqualified by the thread (and as proof, she's still at Live-Action TV). I do remember this had come up. Isn't Ambar the Elementary watcher here?
Sorry if I come off as defensive, but I don't like being accused of stuff that's not my fault.

edited 7th Nov '15 8:56:20 PM by ACW

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#47003: Nov 7th 2015 at 9:27:17 PM

[up][up] Not really. It's an old movie, and the fact he's the boss of the group is like, so ridiculously obvious the film doesn't even treat it like a twist.

randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#47004: Nov 7th 2015 at 9:58:30 PM

Hi guys, I just want to let you know I have a wiki. It organizes Complete Monsters by Director and Actor. It can be found here.

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#47005: Nov 7th 2015 at 10:16:48 PM

Moriarty's been discussed a lot before and while she's nothing but a horrible, horrible person likely beyond redemption even with the element of her daughter (her love for her daughter is based more on a biological compulsion and a "don't touch what's mine" attitude rather than actual love), the trouble is that at this point Moriarty's few redeeming features and Pet the Dog acts don't look insincere, so she can't be judged completely until her character is definitively concluded and we know for sure whether or not these qualities really do mitigate her evilness.

edited 7th Nov '15 10:17:42 PM by ANewMan

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#47006: Nov 7th 2015 at 10:17:43 PM

[up][up] Hm. It seemed like a reveal to me. Good movie, by the way.

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#47007: Nov 7th 2015 at 10:37:34 PM

[up][up]Nil Spaar got disqualified for displaying minor levels of affection toward a concubine, mostly off-screen, and scientifically speaking, what is love but a hormonal compulsion? Looking at the script and my recollections of the episode, her feelings for her daughter seem perfectly genuine to me.

Trust me, I'm an engineer!
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#47008: Nov 7th 2015 at 10:48:03 PM

Abstaining on Moriarity until!unless her arc is done.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#47009: Nov 7th 2015 at 11:19:01 PM

I say wait-and-see on Elementary!Moriarty.

Anywho, I figure now's as good a time as ever to bring up my next candidate. He is yet another version of the man, the myth, the legend, the (in)famous...

Who is he?

...RED SKULL! (Ahem) Red Skull is the Big Bad of the 2014 animated film, Iron Man & Captain America: Heroes United.

What has he done?

Skull opens the film with employing Taskmaster to copy Captain America's skill set, then hires him for a job (And nearly strangles him to death when he insinuates Skull and Cap are a lot alike)

Taskmaster leads an assault on one of Iron Man's flying bases, and, while two HYDRA scientists steal experimental Stark tech, Taskmaster captures Captain America (And procures an Iron Man suit on the side)

When about a dozen HYDRA mooks are captured, they are quick to state they will reveal nothing regarding Red Skull, however they are cut off when Skull activates devices attached to their helmets that (painfully) mind wipe them, leaving them completely blank slates who don't even know they're own names.

Skull then takes a sample of Cap's blood, Mind Rape (s) him, copying his skills onto a hard drive in the process, and, after the extraction is done, Skull brainwashes Cap into becoming a hate-filled HYDRA soldier (This is again portrayed as Mind Rape)

Using his hapless minions as "volunteers," Skull transforms them into monstrous zombie-like super soldiers who's only drive is to serve HYDRA.

After siccing the now brainwashed Cap onto Iron Man, Skull prepares the final phase of his plan: Launching a missile that will spread his HYDRA supersoldier formula world-wide, turning millions of innocents into HYDRA zombies who will help him Take Over the World and make HYDRA the reigning power.

After Taskmaster tries to betray him, Skull reveals he had Mind Rape (ed) him a long time ago into becoming his unknowing slave, and now forces him to do whatever he says.

Cap and Iron Man stop the missile from launching, and Skull decides to kill Taskmaster for "ruining the plan" (In actuality, it was Skull's own Bond Villain Stupidity, but he would never admit that), however the arrival of S.H.I.E.L.D. saves Taskmaster's hide as they arrest Skull and his remaining goons.

Finally, it's shown that this is the same Red Skull as from The First Avenger, with a flashback sequence showing his and Cap's duel aboard his nuke-carrying airship, just with an alternate ending to the situation. Not a huge contributing factor, just felt I should mention it.

Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?

He's Red Skull. Need I say more?

Heinousness?

Mind Rape (s) Captain America into becoming his slave (and did the same to Taskmaster), Mind Rape/ Mind wipes his own soldiers to prevent them from spilling any beans, turns hapless mooks into monstrous zombies (Very painful process), plans to turn millions of people into more of said zombies, tries to murder Taskmaster just to vent his rage, and regularly attempts to kill the heroes.

Now, I know this isn't even close to as bad as Skull is normally, but keep in mind, this is a film geared toward children, and I think, with that in mind, he's bad enough.

Final Verdict?

Leaning [tup]

edited 7th Nov '15 11:30:36 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#47010: Nov 7th 2015 at 11:36:36 PM

Nil Spaar got disqualified for displaying minor levels of affection toward a concubine, mostly off-screen, and scientifically speaking, what is love but a hormonal compulsion?

Wait, was he really? I don't remember that.

My own instinct here is to cut Elementary Moriarty, but I suppose there's no actual harm in waiting until the end of her arc to see if it's a Bait the Dog thing.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#47011: Nov 8th 2015 at 12:15:12 AM

@A New Man: Veran isn't really generic, as Onox reveals after you deliver the final blow to his second form that his goal was to deliver the land of Holodrum to Twinrova to rule for eternity. Same thing with Veran when you defeat her. I'll give you that Onox is Orcus on His Throne, but Veran actually does things to harm the world besides ruining the seasons and destroying the Temple of Seasons. In the manga she uses Queen Ambi's body to execute dissenters who dare to resist trying to build the Black Tower. We're told how horrible she is in Queen Ambi's body and shown (she kills a bunch of sentient monkeys, turns sentient rabbits and a small child to stone, turns a boy's father to stone in front of him, causes a Time Crash as said before, and various other heinous deeds that make her stand out). I could understand making that argument for Vaati, as he simply wishes to become a god and destroy the world, but if we followed that guideline, we'd have to disqualify a lot of villains for not having much of a goal other than destroy/remake the world in their image and become a god (Zanza and Dimentio anyone?) I'm not just proposing a random antagonist, I've played the Oracle games and 100% completed them several times, and not only do I think Veran does not fail the heinous standard, but I think she's got enough personality beyond "I'm evil, so I want to destroy the world.". And she's separate enough from Twinrova that she isn't her puppet or receiving orders or anything. Plus Vaati didn't do much outside of the manga, while Veran has actually deaths to her name and nearly causes the End Of Labyrnna. She also receives a lot more character development in the Manga and is somewhat like a female version of Cyrus and the Evil Queen from Snow White in a blender, only much worse than the Queen ever was. I could do an effortpost on her if you like.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#47012: Nov 8th 2015 at 12:16:19 AM

Abstaining on that version of Skull for now (although if it's the same as the film, I'm inclined to vote [tup] ).

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#47013: Nov 8th 2015 at 12:27:20 AM

For Spaar, it's mentioned very briefly that he honored his first mate Kei by leaving her birthing cask empty in his breeding alcove after her death.

It is literally the only good thing about Spaar. He'd count in a damn heartbeat other than that.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#47014: Nov 8th 2015 at 12:33:29 AM

Wow, is that even enough of a disqualifier?
[down] I see.

edited 8th Nov '15 12:41:47 AM by ACW

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#47015: Nov 8th 2015 at 12:34:50 AM

Spaar is a Yevetha, a race with a ton of fucked up cultural traditions and a basic core belief of "everything not Yevetha is inferior as hell." Spaar making that gesture is huge for a bastard like him.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#47016: Nov 8th 2015 at 1:22:21 AM

Remember when I brought up Genjuro from Flame of Recca? I think he might still qualify as he extracts the dragon Setsuna from Rekka, and unleashes him. For those not in the know, Setsuna's a One-Hit Kill dragon that if you see its eye, you die immediately. Sure enough, if Genjuro had have had his way, everyone in the Ura Butou Satsujin (or Underground Death Tournament) would have been killed giving him a death count that would have outstripped Mori. So yeah, with that in mind and his other disgusting deeds of experimenting on a high schooler, a beast man (turning him into a cannibal), and Mokuren along with attempting to kill everyone in the dome, letting his cannibal servant eat the other fighters, and wanting his research to come to fruition essentially by letting everyone die, and trapping the father of the aforementioned high schooler in a hourglass to make her fight for him, I'd say he's a firm qualifier. I could do a full effortpost on him if you guys aren't convinced yet. But one things for sure, his Karmic Death at the claws of Setsuna is well deserved.

Edit: There is one thing that might prevent him from qualifying. He actually keeps his word in removing the Madogu from Meno as he promised if he lost.

edited 8th Nov '15 1:28:39 AM by Klavice

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#47017: Nov 8th 2015 at 1:34:11 AM

[up] That seems enough of a disqualifier.

ST89 Since: Feb, 2015
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#47019: Nov 8th 2015 at 5:22:44 AM

[tup] To the Red Skull, and to removing Elementary's Moriarty.

If it does turn out to be a bait the dog, it can just be restored after all.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#47022: Nov 8th 2015 at 8:24:49 AM

[tup]Red Skull

edited 8th Nov '15 8:25:10 AM by DemonDuckofDoom

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#47023: Nov 8th 2015 at 8:40:23 AM

My only qualm about this Skull is trying to kill the heroes? Enslaving people? Trying to Take Over the World? Seems pretty standard villainy, ESPECIALLY by Red's standards.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#47024: Nov 8th 2015 at 8:41:04 AM

[tup] Red Skull.

Also removed Joanne Collins from the Heroes Reborn page. She has a (somewhat) Freudian Excuse and she spared her husband even after finding out he was an evo. As far as I can tell, I don't think anyone from the series qualifies.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#47025: Nov 8th 2015 at 8:49:50 AM

Heroes Reborn is way too new for anyone to be going up without a serious discussion. Especially if their arc is still ongoing.

[tup] Red Skull. He's not quite asheinous as the versions from Avengers Earths Mightiest Heroes and Avengers Assemble but he's sufficiently heinous enough to be not as mild as, say, the version from the 90's Spider-Man animated series.

edited 8th Nov '15 8:52:12 AM by ANewMan


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