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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#46076: Oct 21st 2015 at 1:49:27 PM

[tup] to Cob, Yungzhi, Shichong, and Ming-Hua (talk about Adaptational Villainy; in canon, I thought she was unhinged and pretty vicious, but not really capital-E evil).

[up][up]Don't forget that Lewis openly threatened to kill Lisa, even having his hand on the trigger to try and force Cold to kill the Flash. I'm of two minds on including him, though; on the one hand, he's definitely one of the nastiest customers in the series so far, but he still has the Reverse-Flash and the CMs from Arrow to measure up to.

edited 21st Oct '15 1:51:13 PM by DeCarta

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#46077: Oct 21st 2015 at 1:49:44 PM

I'm pretty sure no other low level corrupt cop like him is an actual character in The Flash.

I'm still against him counting, but he is unique.

edited 21st Oct '15 1:50:25 PM by VeryMelon

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#46078: Oct 21st 2015 at 1:52:38 PM

"awful person tortures people for no reason. So, Cannibal Holocaust..." Wait, CH has redeeming value???
Also, I don't mind the rhetorical flourishes. They can prevent an entry from ending abruptly.
As for "monsters done wrong," we may have to cut a whole slew of 'em by that standard.

edited 21st Oct '15 1:56:06 PM by ACW

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#46079: Oct 21st 2015 at 2:14:47 PM

[up] Yup. It's got social commentary on sensationalization and the If It Bleeds, It Leads mentality of some news stations.

Also, I never said a film needed redeeming value. I said it needed a plot.

edited 21st Oct '15 2:15:42 PM by DemonDuckofDoom

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#46080: Oct 21st 2015 at 2:18:41 PM

Well, going by the proposed rules, I know for a fact that we can keep Hidden Lore, NES Godzilla Creepypasta, Sonic.exe, 1999, and The Toadman Saga. We would probably have to cut the boy from Wallflower and Mr. Richards.

jjj
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#46081: Oct 21st 2015 at 2:28:15 PM

[up] The only pastas on there I've actually read are 1999, which had a plot and can be kept, and The Woman to Eat the Childrem, which was plotless crap and can be cut.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#46082: Oct 21st 2015 at 2:29:01 PM

Not sure about Lewis, as he's got the other Arrowverse villains to match up to.

About monsters done wrong, keep in mind when you make a CM villain, you either get a depraved sicko like David from the Last of Us, an Evil Is Cool type like Albert Wesker or multiple versions of the Joker, or a villain that barely passes being a GDV. I don't really know how you can get a CM wrong, but they usually appear is unpublished "edgy" works like Creepypastas and Dark Fics, or torture porn/gorn movies made for no other reason then to be edgy and depraved.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#46083: Oct 21st 2015 at 2:39:54 PM

[tup] to the martial arts' villains Lighty proposed

I don't think Lewis Snart counts. He doesn't really measure up to other Arrowverse Monsters, and I thought it was kind of established he truly liked his son (Twisted though it may have been)

As for the ending "flourishes" of entries, I don't think we need them, but I do think they help the entry not feel like it just abruptly stops.

edited 21st Oct '15 2:41:07 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#46084: Oct 21st 2015 at 2:54:33 PM

By the way, I wanted to point out that we do have at least one precedent for cutting things out of sheer bad taste: the professional wrestling character Ox Baker. We cut him after discussing the fact that his portrayer, Douglas Baker, was forced to act like a total monster by the writers against his will. He hated portraying this character, especially since the writers piggybacked off two real-life deaths to make him seem worse. IIRC, we eventually decided we were uncomfortable with him being there, especially since the real Baker had recently died, and cut him.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#46085: Oct 21st 2015 at 2:56:23 PM

No, we cut Ox Baker because we determined that the Professional Wrestling medium couldn't produce a character with the heinousness required to be a Complete Monster. With only 2 murders, he didn't do enough to qualify.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#46086: Oct 21st 2015 at 2:57:09 PM

[up] I recall that, but I recall the tastelessness factor being a big issue too.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#46087: Oct 21st 2015 at 2:58:43 PM

I'm not saying that people here weren't against him being an example on principle, but saying that was a reason he was cut is incorrect.

It's also nowhere near the same ballpark as the issues we have with Creepypastas and Dark Fic. Part of the opposition to Ox Baker was the morality of the situation, but it's precedent is different from Creepypastas and Dark Fic's general quality of creative ease as a storytelling medium and genre, respectively.

edited 21st Oct '15 3:02:01 PM by VeryMelon

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#46088: Oct 21st 2015 at 3:02:35 PM

Frankly, I don't think we should ever allow anymore Professional Wrestling examples, mostly due to how they really blur the line with real life and the fact that I don't think the sport as a medium can ever be serious enough for a Complete Monster.

Also, I would like to vouch for keeping Kirby from There Will Be Brawl since it's a professionally done web original series created by The Escapist. Seriously, everyone should watch it. It's like if HBO did an adaptation of Super Smash Brothers.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#46089: Oct 21st 2015 at 3:07:31 PM

I think a Pro Wrestling character COULD count, but it'd have to be a hell of an example.
And Human Centipede DOES have a plot: A psychotic Mad Scientist tries a crazy experiment (hey, I never said it was a GOOD plot tongue ).

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#46090: Oct 21st 2015 at 3:11:26 PM

I'd also vouch for There Will Be Brawl (which I'd describe as Mario in the style of Sin City). It's kind of the exception to the rule in terms of the "inherently ridiculous premise" rule.

I think it works/isn't disqualified, because although the premise is "grimdark parody", it plays out as more along the lines of a Darker and Edgier adaptation of a work. One comparison I thought of is it is to Mario what Pluto is to Astro Boy.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#46091: Oct 21st 2015 at 3:23:24 PM

By the way, it looks at in the mid-2016 we will have to movie Mick Taylor to Live-Action TV. They are making a Six-part miniseries sequel to the movies. Read this.

edited 21st Oct '15 3:23:56 PM by emperors

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
speyeker Since: Jan, 2001
#46092: Oct 21st 2015 at 3:24:57 PM

Ravok, I remember when we discussed The Reverse-Flash back in May we decided that we couldn't directly compare the villains of The Flash to the villains of Arrow, since the two shows are drastically different in terms of tone and arguably even in terms of target audience, even if they share a universe. I think Lewis Snart should be compared to the other villains seen in Central City thus far, and by that comparison, he's extremely nasty, although he does kill his tech guy for mouthing off to his son.

edited 21st Oct '15 3:26:56 PM by speyeker

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#46093: Oct 21st 2015 at 3:25:11 PM

[up] Fascinating. That they got the original Mick is a good sign. Wonder if he'll finally get his comeuppance.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#46094: Oct 21st 2015 at 3:26:01 PM

[up] I hope so. If he won't I am not even gonna watch it.

Edit: Speaking of Mick, I think him and Emperor Palpatine (the Legends version of him) are the two most evil C Ms ever created. (the canon version of Palpatine is a CM too but less evil)

edited 21st Oct '15 3:32:42 PM by emperors

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#46095: Oct 21st 2015 at 3:33:06 PM

BTW, I asked this some time ago: Does Pazuzu have any actions in the sequels?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#46096: Oct 21st 2015 at 3:43:04 PM

Not really. I mean, the closest I can think of is he's the Bigger Bad to Venamun in 3

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#46097: Oct 21st 2015 at 3:43:42 PM

Hey, everyone. I founded this example in the Page of Anime and manga.

Magic Knight Rayearth: Most characters get a sympathetic, or at least understandable, motive for what they do. The exception is the Big Bad from the anime’s second season. Lady Debonair, born from the collective fears of Cephiro's people, wants to destroy the world for no understandable reason, cannot be reasoned with, and will use any despicable trick in the book to get her way. She abandons her own "daughter", Nova, to her fate after she fails in defeating the Magic Knights. She was the one who killed the very popular Anti-Villain Eagle Vision for no reason at all and got the already unstable Alcyone completely Brainwashed and Crazy so she could become her Dark Action Girl Dragon, killing her when the Mind Control completely broke.
.

She sound like who she is Made of Evil. So...cut her?

Watch me destroying my country
Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#46098: Oct 21st 2015 at 3:44:12 PM

I'd like to propose a character from Vacancy.

Background Vacancy is a 2007 movie about David and Amy Fox, an unhappy married couple who become lost on a mountain road and are having car trouble. They pull over at a gas station next to the Pine View Motel and a seemingly-friendly gas station attendant ‘fixes’ their car for them. However, after leaving, their car breaks down and they have to walk back to the hotel where they meet Mason, the hotel manager.

Who are they? What do they do? Mason is the manager of the Pine View Motel, and a snuff filmer. When people stay at the hotel, they get terrorized and murdered by a pair of serial killers who work for Mason. When David and Amy show up at the hotel, they hear the screams of one of his snuff films, but he plays it off as a horror movie. He puts them in a room where David finds several video tapes of past victims, and the two serial killers start banging on the doors. David calls 911 on a phone booth after temporarily escaping, only to find that Mason is on the other end. They find an underground tunnel that leads to the manager’s office, where there are multiple screens and dozens of video tapes, and Amy manages to call the police for real. Most of the rest of the movie is spent by the two serial killers attempting to murder them, and killing a police officer who comes by, and one of them eventually stabs and seemingly kills David. In the morning, Amy somehow kills both of the serial killers with her car, and Mason flies into a rage, attempting to strangle and beat her to death himself while filming it.

Freudian excuses? Offscreen villainy? Other mitigating factors? No freudian excuse. Offscreen villainy isn’t a problem because we see several of the video tapes. Also, while Mason is upset when the two killers are killed, there’s nothing to suggest that he cares about either of them personally. He doesn’t mention them while ranting at Amy near the end.

The only real mitigating factor is that he’s not the one doing the killing for the snuff films. He acts as more of a director. We only see one of the two serial killers acting like a normal person, so I don’t know that I’d consider them for this trope because we don’t know much about them. Mason is shown ordering them around, and is clearly the mastermind, but the two killers are also crazy psychos.

Conclusion It’d be more clear-cut if he was acting alone or if both killers were given even less characterization so that they could be considered to be acting entirely under Mason’s will, but I still think that Mason counts.

Also, I noticed that you guys are talking about fanfics/creepypastas and their legitimacy or illegitimacy. Personally, I think that a good rule might be to allow fanfics and creepypastas only if they have a work page.

edited 22nd Oct '15 8:35:15 AM by Camberf

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#46099: Oct 21st 2015 at 3:46:11 PM

Cut Debonair for now, yeah.

Now...

I can't agree with a unilateral cut on anything, but I think Duck's proposals are a good build.. I think MLP examples can stay if it's not screwed up pointless darkfic.

Oh, another matter...there's a sequel to the Gym Teacher? Oh, will the werewolf gym teacher rape a pre-teen this time because EDGY?

BIG no on Lewis Snart, btw.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#46100: Oct 21st 2015 at 3:49:46 PM

Um, Lighty, you're the one who said that Debnonair DOESN'T have moral agency issues. tongue
As for Pazuzu, I'm wondering if either he's not bad enough, or the writeup needs some work.
Mason may do enough to count. Think Starkweather from Manhunt.
[tdown] Allowing only works with a page.

edited 21st Oct '15 3:50:17 PM by ACW


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