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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#44402: Sep 13th 2015 at 3:19:57 PM

[tup] to Brom Bones, Peter, and The Alien

Anyone else have votes for Number Five and/or Phosphorous Beta?

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#44403: Sep 13th 2015 at 3:22:03 PM

[tup] to both Peter and the alien. Peter actually seems worse than Charles Cooper. One thing that Beast forgot to mention was that after the three kids broke in after ours and got killed by Peter and the animatronics, he altered the security footage to frame an innocent janitor.

jjj
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#44404: Sep 13th 2015 at 3:48:35 PM

[tup] to the alien.

Tried looking up the Night of the Headless Horseman, but couldn't find it anywhere, so abstaining on Brom for now.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44405: Sep 13th 2015 at 4:07:34 PM

ACW, I fixed some of the grammar for Serphs entry on Shin Megami Tensei.

edited 13th Sep '15 4:08:38 PM by VeryMelon

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#44406: Sep 13th 2015 at 6:13:58 PM

Well, Number Five has, ironically, 5 [tup] votes, so I'll do the write-up. Anymore votes for Five or Beta would be appreciated.

  • Daniel X:
    • Number Five on The List, also his only known name, is an "entertainment" director in the 2nd book in the series, Watch The Skies. Showing up on planets with lesser tech than his, Five would mind-control isolated towns into performing entertaining acts, kill them in sadistic ways, then sell footage of these acts to illegal alien networks. Arriving on Earth, Five murders dozens of people through vaporization and Psychic-Assisted Suicide, including his own henchmen for unintentional insults, filming all the way. When his master plan, to use clones of himself to increase his filming to a galaxy-wide scale, is thwarted by Daniel X, Five holds his girlfriend hostage and tries to kill Daniel. Surviving his near-death at Daniel's hands, Five plans on infecting all technology on Earth and cause world-wide chaos, while also calling in reinforcements to help conquer the planet. Commiting his atrocities for cheap entertainment, Number Five was an egomaniacal and sadistic monster who treated everyone as props for his "show."

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#44408: Sep 13th 2015 at 9:34:50 PM

Okay, this is going waaaaaay back but anyone remember Lono from 100 Bullets? I recall he was cut because it was announced that there would be a sequel miniseries where be becomes The Atoner. Anyone know how that panned out? Inquiring minds want to know.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#44409: Sep 13th 2015 at 9:43:24 PM

Oh, he wasn't cut because it was announced, he was cut as of the fifth issue of it. Lono did actually reform (though by the end, he slips into his monstrously violent self and slaughters the bad guys), but there's a number of scenes where Lono is shown genuinely having changed and caring about the orphans at the church where he works.

Lono also might have cared for Milo, another member of the Minutemen and his own trainer Mr. Shepherd, even at his worst.

I've seen The Hidden and that gets an easy yes, Morgenthaler. And a yes to the Daniel X examples now

edited 13th Sep '15 9:46:21 PM by Lightysnake

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#44410: Sep 13th 2015 at 10:03:28 PM

[tup] for 5 Any who, I found a quote that might fit with the CM page for Pokemon

“ My wish is...to engulf this world in darkness... „ Darkrai, Pokemon Mystery Dungeons: Explorers of Time/ Darkness/Sky

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Nithael (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#44411: Sep 13th 2015 at 10:16:24 PM

I remember the alien from The Hidden, it's an easy [tup] for him.

edited 13th Sep '15 10:41:14 PM by Nithael

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#44412: Sep 13th 2015 at 10:30:51 PM

[tup] for the alien to Also what do you guys think about my quote? Is it appropriate for the Pokemon CM page?

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#44413: Sep 13th 2015 at 10:32:16 PM

I've also these quotes from the Daniel X series that I believe are quite good.

->-"Unreal, isn't it? Sometimes even I can't believe it. I mean, ever since I was little, I always dreamed of commiting mass destruction. But on this kind of scale? It's more than even I had a right to expect…It took half a million years for your people to build the city of Bryn Spi, the shining jewel of your planet. It took me one and a half hours to blow it into a billion shiny pieces. And by this time next year-and this is my favorite part-it will look like nothing ever stood here at all…The few who are still alive scurry through the ruins like rats. They have no powers, no hope, no reason to live, really. But still they stumble on. Pathetic."

—>—Ergent Seth showing Daniel the remains of his home world, The Dangerous Days of Daniel X

->-"So you've really never seen it? The scene where Number 1 killed you parents? You didn't know I was there, filming the whole thing?…That surprises me. You know, out on the Extranet…that clip has had more than thirty-five trillion downloads…It's very moving. The part where your mom cries like a little girl is pure emotion, but my personal favorite scene is where your dad begs Number 1 for his life. ' Oh, Mr. Prayer, please, I can get you money, I can help you, just don't hurt my fa-fa-family, oh puh-lease! ' Yes, perhaps that necklace of your mom's you're wearing will dispel any lingering doubts you may have…That footage where you recognized it and started crying is priceless. Just priceless!"

—>—Number Five taunting Daniel about his parents' deaths, Daniel X: Watch the Skies

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#44414: Sep 13th 2015 at 10:38:35 PM

As a sidenote, it's been long enough with Hannibal now:

Nobody counts.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#44415: Sep 13th 2015 at 11:25:50 PM

[tup] to the alien. As for the Pokemon quote... no. Nothing about that speaks "Complete Monster;" that's seems more specifically suited to Omnicidal Maniac. Honestly, way too many of the quotes we've been using for Monsters are way too loose for the trope. I can remember some talk a while back about changing the quotes page so that it reflects more on the nature of this trope and not just evil-sounding quotes. I fully concur with a change like that.

Any final thoughts on Buppa/Merra before I write them up?

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#44416: Sep 13th 2015 at 11:43:10 PM

Ok I was just trying to find good quote for the Pokemon CM page

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#44417: Sep 13th 2015 at 11:59:35 PM

I think one could find better quote for Pokemon in the 4th Movie or that Zoroark one with Grings Kodai.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#44419: Sep 14th 2015 at 4:50:41 AM

[tup]Seth, Peter, Alien, and Oswald

[tdown]Brom Bones

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#44420: Sep 14th 2015 at 4:59:57 AM

Any opinions on Brom Bones from The Night of the Headless Horseman? If no one can find a place to watch the movie online, you can get it at Amazon for 4:37 (although it might be a little silly to buy a movie just to determine if the character counts or not, although that's one of the reasons I got the wolf creek novels).

I am willing to [tup] Oswald Manse if his relationship with his brother Martin was not redeeming, but I would like to know if Martin also counts. It seems that Martin was no saint himself.

[up] Could you please explain why you are voting [tdown] for Brom?

jjj
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#44421: Sep 14th 2015 at 7:42:15 AM

[up][up][up][up][up][up][up]Not even Verger? Who counted in the movie?

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#44422: Sep 14th 2015 at 7:58:12 AM

[up] We talked Verger, and while he's a depraved scumbag himself, he isn't as heinous as Hannibal was.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#44423: Sep 14th 2015 at 8:14:33 AM

Also, since it would seem Phosphorous Beta is a keep as well, here's a quote from him.

->- "Things were different back then. I was burning mud huts instead of oil refineries. But England's always been one of my favorite places to terrorize. But, all earthly things must come to an end, and eventually England will have served its purpose. Then it's off to somewhere else, and somewhere else after that, until this planet is a husk filled with ashes. I wouldn't worry, though. You'll be gone long before that happens…If I could, I'd let you burn for a couple thousand years. It's the least you deserve. Flesh is so pitifully frail, though. Under the circumstances, I guess thirty minutes will have to do."

—>— Phosphorous Beta to Daniel X, Daniel X: Demons and Druids

edited 14th Sep '15 8:44:30 AM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#44424: Sep 14th 2015 at 8:53:04 AM

So, I have an issue I'd like to revisit. Back when we first began cleaning up the DC Comics subpage, a decision was made to keep the Bronze Age version of Mongul I, cut the Post-Crisis version of Mongul I, and keep Post-Crisis Mongul II. We later added the New 52 version of Mongul I as well. I've been rereading a number of 80s and 90s Post-Crisis comics, and I'm starting to wonder if cutting Post-Crisis Mongul I (or Mongul the Elder, as he's sometimes referred to) was a mistake. At the very least, I think there was some information about him that did not come up. With that in mind, I've decided to do a full-length effort post on him, to see what people think. If somebody wants to PM everybody who was involved in the original discussion, that's fine by me.

Who is Mongul the Elder? What has he done?

The Post-Crisis version of Mongul I was the dictator of Warworld, an artificial, mobile planet. Hated by his people, Mongul kept them entertained with gladiatorial games, pitting slaves he had captured all over the galaxy against one another in battles to the death. It was in this context that he first encountered Superman, whom he kidnapped and forced into a fight against Draaga, his best gladiator. When Superman refused to kill Draaga, Mongul entered the arena himself, where he lost to Superman, and was deposed.

Mongul returns as the servant of the Cyborg-Superman, during "The Death & Return of Superman". Arriving on Earth in an enormous spaceship, Mongul obliterates Hal Jordan's hometown of Coast City, then has his probes begin constructing a new "Engine City", ostensibly for his new master. In reality, Mongul is looking to betray the Cyborg-Superman. When the Cyborg's attempt at turning Metropolis into a second Engine City (which would have made Earth into Warworld 2.0) fails, Mongul orders the first engine fired up anyway, knowing that without a second engine to balance it out, it will shake the planet to pieces. Green Lantern manages to capture Mongul I, avenging Coast City in the process.

Mongul I organizes a prison riot and breaks out, tearing through the guards. He's defeated by the new Green Lantern, Kyle Rayner, and locked up in a lunar penal colony. Mongul organizes another breakout, massacres the entire population of the penal colony, and escapes into space, where he is picked up by doctors from Debstaam IV.

Arriving on Debstaam IV, Mongul I slaughters the ruling council, takes over the planet, and forces the inhabitants to participate in duels to the death, dressed as the heroes of Earth. When a virus decimates the population, a majority of Debstaam IV's people choose exposure to the virus and death, over continuing to live under Mongul's tyranny. In the end, one of Mongul's slave-scientists opts to destroy the antidote to the virus and let the people die free. Mongul I subsequently returns to Earth and is captured by the Wally West Flash and imprisoned in the Slab, where the demon lord Neron kills him.

Sometime later, as Mongul II reflects on his father's career, we are shown flashbacks to Mongul I's childhood, where he killed his brother to monopolize his parents' affections. We're also shown images from "For the Man Who Has Everything", implying that the events of that story—where he psychologically tortured Superman to the breaking point—have been retconned back into canon (which given Mongul II's own use of the Black Mercy, and his claim that his father discovered them first, makes sense).

Are his actions heinous by the standards of the story?

I would contend yes. Sure, he was working for the Cyborg-Superman during the business with Coast City, but it's not as though he's sorry about it, and the decision to fire up Engine City and destroy the world is his. There's also the matter of being such a tyrannical prick that a world essentially chose suicide over working for him, an achievement that's fairly unique within the DC Universe.

It should also be noted that when it comes to tiers, Post-Crisis Mongul I isn't near the threat that his Bronze Age counterpart was, something that his defeats at the hands of both Green Lantern and the Flash (both of whom Pre-Crisis Mongul would have brushed aside) should show. Power-wise he's probably beneath most Post-Crisis incarnations of Brainiac, yet still manages to have a bodycount in the billions.

Does he have any redeeming qualities?

No version of Mongul I has ever had a redeeming quality, and this one is no exception. He was a brutal despot, a treacherous henchman, a terrible father, and an all-around bastard.

Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?

Cyborg-Superman tortured Mongul I into acting as his underling during the Coast City/Engine City debacle, so you could argue that he's not responsible for that. The thing is, he acts exactly the same, whether he's working for the Cyborg or as an independent agent.

Final verdict?

I think cutting Post-Crisis Mongul the Elder may have been a mistake. At the very least, I think he's worth another look and a second discussion that takes all his crimes into account. I'm curious as to what others think.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love

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