TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#44201: Sep 9th 2015 at 6:25:06 AM

[up][up]

Thank you for your support, though I do feel I should point out that Krane didn't actually kidnap his soldiers, he grew them in a lab. However they are still in every sense human beings, with their own thoughts and freewill.

Arguably it makes Krane even worse, as in a sense he was their father.

Oh and I'll [tup] to both Mumm-Ra and Grune.

edited 9th Sep '15 6:28:44 AM by MGD107

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#44202: Sep 9th 2015 at 6:31:14 AM

Honestly, much like Firefly, it doesn't bare mentioning. Kaynar, Addicus and Slithe literally tried to eat the children alive. So did a minor antagonist—a fish man chef—who was treated as a minor nuisance at best. Children were almost certainly killed or in danger of dying both when Mumm-Ra sacked Thundera, tried to destroy the birdmens' flying city, and, most importantly, wiped out a star system with billions of people in it. Does it really matter that he says he's willing to kill two children face-to-face when he's surely killed so many already?

As for Grune, my point still stands that Vultaire also turned against his people for power and was willing to have the inhabitants of his flying city die just so he could be on the winning side, so it's not exactly like Grune's special. Grune was also apparently good enough friends with Panthro to sincerely ask him to join him in his plans. It's not much since he tries to kill him when he refuses but at the very least it was clear he was going through some Sanity Slippage at the time, and it's more sincerity than Mumm-Ra ever showed to any of his allies. The closest he got to "affection" was telling his right-hand man in a flashback, paraphrased, "You're useful, don't make me kill you."

edited 9th Sep '15 6:35:52 AM by OccasionalExister

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#44204: Sep 9th 2015 at 7:10:53 AM

Abstaining on Krane. While he has been revealed to have indeed picked up some more heinous actions but Lab Rats has started to get really dark with it's villains so he's still not far and away the most heinous villain. The new Big Bad Giselle Vickers in her first episode alone tried to torture Chase to death by cutting his insides out to retrieve a chip, planned to commit genocide against Bionic Humans, and is guilty of experimentation toward a sentient army of Androids as well [i'm not sure if it's to the same extent as Krane though], and her Dragon Ascendant Troy, threatened to take control of said commit genocide against not only bionic humans but all of humanity after betraying her. I'm not sure if I would recommend them since their still Played for Laughs at some points, and Giselle's arc isn't over yet.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#44205: Sep 9th 2015 at 7:31:50 AM

[up][up][up] Well, face to face may make it even worse (A Million Is a Statistic and all). It certaintly doesn't hurt.
Anyway, speaking of Mumm-Ra, was he corrupted by the Ancient Spirits? Or was he always evil and actively sought their help?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#44206: Sep 9th 2015 at 7:33:29 AM

Stop fishing for these things. The constant "But what about this" doesn't help. Obviously if that was even a hint, Exister would have mentioned it.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#44208: Sep 9th 2015 at 8:42:07 AM

To add to the above discussion: where exactly do we draw the line at whether adding killing children is necessary or not? The main thing that pushed Brenin from Lord of the Rings Online over into this trope was his plan to kill the women and children of Rohan during the Battle of Helm's Deep. Since the MMO follows the books, would that crime stand out in the grand scheme of things in Lord of the Rings since we presume orcs kill children in villages they destroy?

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44209: Sep 9th 2015 at 8:46:39 AM

As the Firefly discussion shows, Would Hurt a Child is fine enough on it's own if not too many other people are doing it.

edited 9th Sep '15 8:46:50 AM by VeryMelon

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#44210: Sep 9th 2015 at 8:47:33 AM

It's a function of the universe. In a place like the Septimus Heap universe, it wouldn't be worth listing as none of the bad guys have hesitations at killing children, in fact it tends to be their main objective. Lord of the Rings usually doesn't show any children being threatened, so it would stand out there.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#44211: Sep 9th 2015 at 9:14:30 AM

Mumm-Ra's a no brainer at this point, and so far it seems Grune has one more [tup] vote than [tdown] votes. I take it he goes up then?

As for Grune, my point still stands that Vultaire also turned against his people for power and was willing to have the inhabitants of his flying city die just so he could be on the winning side, so it's not exactly like Grune's special.

Did Vultaire showcase no redeeming features and actively assist in the deaths of his city's inhabitants? Or feeling even the winning side wasn't good enough and plot to be The Starscream? 'Cause that's what sets Grune apart.

Grune was also apparently good enough friends with Panthro to sincerely ask him to join him in his plans. It's not much since he tries to kill him when he refuses but at the very least it was clear he was going through some Sanity Slippage at the time, and it's more sincerity than Mumm-Ra ever showed to any of his allies.

The "you could be a good ally - join me?" thing isn't really redemptive, though. Freeza pulled it on Goku in his saga and on Vegeta in the newest movie, yet he's still nothing but a Complete Monster.

edited 9th Sep '15 9:18:27 AM by ANewMan

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#44212: Sep 9th 2015 at 9:14:55 AM

Furthermore, Brenin is a human chieftain with far more limited resources than Saruman and Sauron who tend to use the orcs as tools, and mass slaughter of children i not a crime that comes up in LOTR overmuch. In the DCAU children do get threatened, and people try to destroy Gotham plenty.

I think I need to vote no on Grune for right now.

edited 9th Sep '15 9:16:16 AM by Lightysnake

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#44213: Sep 9th 2015 at 9:15:26 AM

Lighty: First off, it was bobg who did the original effortpost. Second, I wo'n't stop fishing. I wanna make sure the characters count.
As for killing kids: What was said, but also, the means are also a factor (think of Percival McLeach.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#44214: Sep 9th 2015 at 9:17:35 AM

There's a point in being thorough, but then there's a point where it becomes unnecessary. Exister and I would both have mentioned that if it were the case.

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#44216: Sep 9th 2015 at 9:19:10 AM

Well damn, now Grune's vote is tied again. just bugs me

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#44217: Sep 9th 2015 at 10:54:26 AM

Here's Grune in a vacuum (so Mumm-Ra doesn't influence):

  • frees Mumm Ra knowing who he is and what he will do
    • Pretty bad.
  • tries to kill his supposed friend Panthro
    • Douchey, but that's it.
  • takes part in the enslavement of his own people
    • Ditto.
  • watches Mumm Ra torture Jaga with no emotion
    • Meh.
  • Tries to kill the remaining Thundercats
    • Trying to kill the heroes=bad, but not CM bad.
  • tries to kill an entire village
    • This...maybe.
  • tries to betray Mumm Ra
  • tries to drag Panthro in with him when being sucked into the astral plane

All-in-all, he seems bad, but I'm not sure CM-worthy.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#44219: Sep 9th 2015 at 11:21:08 AM

Found another potential candidate

What's the work?

Help! I'm a Fish is a 2000 Danish-German-Irish animated family film about three kids who, after drinking an eccentric scientist's potion, turn into fish and end up lost at sea, with just 48 hours to get the antidote, also lost at sea, or else they will remain fish forever.

Who is he?

Joe is a pilot fish who finds the antidote and, after inhaling some of it, gains human intelligence. A shark also inhales some of it, though not the amount Joe did, and Joe appoints him his Dragon.

What has he done?

Joe begins "sampling" the antidote to hundreds of fish, and creates a sort of society, where he is ruler. He makes sure to keep every fish other than himself below average in intelligence, despite promising loyalty would bring them even more intelligence.

He forces alot of the fish into labor camps, forcing them to build statues of him and such, under threat of being eaten by Shark.

Joe plans on using the potion to make every fish in the sea smart enough to be his army, then use them to Take Over the World.

When the three kids, Fly, Stella, and Chuck, try to get the antidote to turn back into humans, they let slip they know alot about the antidote, at which point Joe captures them.

Taking them to his lair, Joe tries to manipulate them into telling him how to make more of the potion, and, when thst doesn't work, orders Shark to eat some of Joe's (innocent) servants to "motivate" the kids.

They inform him they know nothing of the recipe for the potion (which is true) and that they're actually humans, but he locks them up, sends their seahorse "pet" (Who is about as sentient as Abu or Pikachu) to work in the labor camps (where she nearly dies), and tells them they have till morning to tell him the recipe, or he'll feed them to Shark.

Their seahorse rescues them, leading to Joe trying to have Shark and Crab (Joe's secondary Dragon), executed for failure. Of course, seeing as Shark is 5 times as big as everyone else, Joe begrudingly "let's them live."

Joe finds the kids, with even more potion, and again tries to manipulate them into giving it to him, however Shark grows tired of Joe's Bad Boss behavior and seizes him as the kids flee.

Fly is injured by Crab, who tries to pull a The Starscream, but fails miserably as both he and Shark end up causing each other's deaths.

The kids try to make it back to the scientist's lab to find more potion, but Joe smacks the kids out of the way in order to get the antidote. When he gets his hands on more of it, he refuses to let the kids drink any to spite them, then sics pirahnas on them to kill them, despite the fact he was already making a clean getaway.

When Fly confronts Joe, Joe threatens to kill him, but Fly plays on his ego, asking him increasingly hard questions, causing Joe to drink the potion to increase his intelligence to such an extent he grows lungs and drowns.

The kids drink the potion and the day is saved.

Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?

Doesn't care for anything but himself. Wants nothing more then world domination. Pass.

Heinousness? Due to being a major Smug Snake, he has a few humiliating moments (Being whacked over the head by Crab on accident; Shark making something of a fool out of him by pointing out Joe can't execute him cause he's a freaking shark, etc.) But none of that is in play when he's feeding innocent, sentient fish to Shark, forcing sentient fish to work in labor camps, and trying to terrorize and murder (human) children for something they don't even know, and even For the Evulz, among his other crimes.

Final Verdict?

He's kind of a close call, but due to everything he's done, along with it being in a kid's movie, I'd say he counts.

edited 9th Sep '15 1:32:56 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#44220: Sep 9th 2015 at 11:41:41 AM

[up] Oh I used to love this cartoon! I never considered Joe a Complete Monster but your effort-post makes me see why he might qualify. Because I never saw him particularly heinous I will give tentative [tdown].

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
finalsurvivor1 Since: Jan, 2012
#44221: Sep 9th 2015 at 12:09:24 PM

[up][up][up] Nice page, but one minor correction: The very first game in the franchise, Digital Devil Story: Megami Tensei, came out for the Famicom in '87. It's been around since the 80s.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#44223: Sep 9th 2015 at 12:25:58 PM

Saw a Bobsheaux and a Cartoon Corner review of that movie, looked promising. But from what I've seen I'm leaning [tdown] to Joe.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#44224: Sep 9th 2015 at 12:26:15 PM

@emperors: While I understand your concerns, the thing is, this guy wants to Take Over the World, runs a dictatorship with labor camps, regularly feeds innocent people (fish) to Shark for little to no reason, has the kids' pet sent to a labor camp just to torment/get information out of them, tries to kill them after they give him what he wants For the Evulz, and tries to have his completely-loyal-up-to-that- point Co-Dragons executed for one mistake.

Oh, and the kids he is trying to murder? Two 11-12 year olds and one 5-7 year old.

That's pretty bad for a kids' film, escpecially with his limited screentime.

edited 9th Sep '15 12:29:41 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#44225: Sep 9th 2015 at 12:28:51 PM

Like Fighteer, I have huge reservations about including any villains from kids films. But you do make fair points, and I might change my vote.

edited 9th Sep '15 12:29:38 PM by emperors

Welcome to the world of greatest media!

Total posts: 326,048
Top