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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#44176: Sep 8th 2015 at 3:13:51 PM

[up] It does have five entries now.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44177: Sep 8th 2015 at 3:14:58 PM

I'm for giving Shin Megami Tensei its own page. It's an ongoing franchise, so more can be added in the future if necessary.

edited 6th Feb '16 6:31:27 PM by VeryMelon

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#44178: Sep 8th 2015 at 3:15:44 PM

[up][up] Yeah, but I've been warned that not every work with 5+ entries needs a subpage (my humble opinion, it should, but that's just me), so I wanna get more feedback first.
[up] That's a good case for giving it one. Something like, say, Buffyverse and Stargateverse probably won't have new monsters.
Any good quotes if it does get a subpage?

edited 8th Sep '15 3:16:47 PM by ACW

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44179: Sep 8th 2015 at 3:18:44 PM

"That's why you'll never surpass me. Since when did people start expecting science to be humane? To study the body, you cut it open. To study the mind, you isolate it by crushing the heart. Historically, that's how science has advanced." —Serph Sheffield, Digital Devil Saga 2

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44181: Sep 8th 2015 at 3:24:41 PM

I hope it is. I don't normally participate in quote discussions so I just looked for the first thing I could find.

edited 8th Sep '15 3:24:51 PM by VeryMelon

finalsurvivor1 Since: Jan, 2012
#44183: Sep 8th 2015 at 4:09:32 PM

If there was any quote from an SMT monster, that is the best. [tup]

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#44184: Sep 8th 2015 at 5:30:04 PM

Okay I may have found someone who could count, now bear with me, I initially dismissed him as being too generic a villain to qualify, but recently his crimes have gotten to the point where I think he could make the cut.

What about Victor Krane from Disney’s Lab Rats?

Who is he: Krane is an insane and power hungry billionaire genius who takes over as the Big Bad for Season 3. Initially he was the partner to Douglas Davenport (a Mad Scientist who invented the bionic technology the series runs on, is Adam, Bree and Chase’s real father and the Big Bad of Season 2).

Krane financed Douglas’s experiments after Donald Davenport (Douglas older brother and Adam, Bree and Chase’s adopted father) kicked him out. In return Douglas shared his inventions; using them Krane upgraded himself with bionic abilities giving him incredible powers.

What does he do: Initially he works with Douglas in his plans to take Adam, Bree and Chase back by brainwashing them, so they can be used as Bionic soldiers. However when Chase manages to resist the programing, Krane immediately forces the others (namely his siblings) to try and kill him, against Douglas’s wishes. Following their first attempt failing, Krane declares from now on they will only try and kill all three of them.

As time goes on, the partnership rapidly deteriorates as Douglas realises just how insane and dangerous Krane is (and despite being willing to kidnap, imprison and brainwash he never wanted to kill Adam, Bree and Chase who he sees as his children). Following Douglas warning the others about him, Krane tries to kill Douglas by strangulation (something which would have worked if Douglas hadn’t seen it coming and taken precautions beforehand).

He then kidnaps Donald’s wife Tasha, and adopted son Leo (whose fourteen), to try and force Donald to hand over Adam, Bree and Chase (his motivation for killing them at this point, is mostly ego, he is too arrogant to allow any rivals to his supremacy to exist). He locks them in what is basically an oven, and starts to cook them alive to force Donald to put down the force field he’s using to protect Adam, Bree and Chase. Krane then teleports to their location, leaving Tasha and Leo to cook to death, and tries to kill the kids. Thankfully they are saved by Douglas causing Krane to flee.

Krane returns with his new minion S-1, and attacks them by revealing their existence to the world. He then tries to kill Leo and Douglas (and Leo’s principal for simply being there) at Leo’s school, and then tracks them down to one of Krane’s old labs when they survive. Adam, Bree, Chase and Donald arrive and it breaks into an all-out brawl, Krane is defeated and imprisoned. However it’s revealed he’s improved the brainwashing process allowing him to control those who have been affected with his mind now, likewise the ending reveals that Krane has secretly bred an entire army of bionic soldiers.

In his final appearance, Krane has his army begin attacks and then break him out. By this point he’s become convinced that bionics make him and his follows superior to normal humans, so he declares war on humanity planning to create a bionic empire with himself as the dictator. Using Douglas’s technology, he brainwashes the president, and plans to activate a mass brainwashing across the world. The heroes confront him and his army, during the fight Krane critically injures Donald. Then he refuses to let any of his soldiers near Adam, Bree and Chase, wanting the personally kill them. The three of them manage to kill Krane, by supercharging their abilities and hitting him with the blast, foiling his evil scheme.

Now up to this point, while clearly pretty evil Krane seemed too generic qualify. However it’s what’s revealed after he died that bumps up his heinous standard. Namely it’s revealed that Krane’s entire bionic army, were only following him because he had brainwashed them. Each of his soldiers, was a person he grew in a lab them experimented upon to give them bionics (now this is not unique to him, this is how Douglas created Adam, Bree and Chase, however he at least proved to care for his creations, Krane treated them like Red Shirts).

Once free of his influence, almost all his soldiers proved to be more or less innocent blank slates (due to Krane never even allowing them any form of life out of serving him, to the point he never even gave them names). To put this in perspective, his entire army was basically slaves and all of them were in their late teens at most (with a few being genuine children) who he created, used and forced to fight for his own mad plans.

Krane’s also revealed to have experimented upon Douglas’s pet dog, and programed him to kill Douglas.

But the crowning moment of heinous for Krane, is the reveal that the same process he used to brainwash all his soldiers, secretly carried a virus that meant that in the event he died, all his followers would also die (his army has around 100 or so members), purely out of Krane being such an egomaniac he would not allow them to live any life that didn’t benefit him.

Heinous Standard: For a Disney Show, Lab Rats can be surprisingly dark. A lot of the villains are quite casually murderous and insane. Douglas himself was initially a dangerously mad scientist, until he went through a Heel–Face Turn. However even as a good guy he’s still somewhat psychotic.

However Krane is undisputedly the worse. The scale of his crimes goes beyond every other villain even considered. He committed everything from: human experimentation, slavery, used Child Soldiers, brainwashing, animal cruelty, torture and mass attempted murder.

Likewise Krane as a villain was always played completely straight, any humour that came from him, always from other characters mocking him. His Lack of Empathy and disregard for human life ends up disturbing Douglas (who for reference was perfectly happy to resort using his children to commit large scale crimes, and murder his own brother and his nephew) to point he effectively causes him to take a Heel–Face Turn.

Inverse he is accepted as the greatest threat, and constantly described as a Sociopath and a madman. Even after his death, his dark influence continues to loom over the heroes.

Any redeeming Traits or Freudian excuse: None, anything Krane does that could even remotely be seen as a redeeming act (and there are so few you would have to squint to see that) is motivated purely by selfish or pragmatic reasons. His motivation amounts to wanting more power, and being too arrogant to except any rivals to his power existing.

It is implied, his constant bionic upgrades did help turn him into a monster. However as the heroes also have Bionic upgrades and his former soldiers do, the in show ideal of this is less power corrupts. More it brings out the true nature of the person.

Conclusion: Krane initially seemed a generic villain (with plans to kill the hero and take over the world), however the sheer scale of lack of empathy or regard for human life he displayed, along with his obvious cruelty and sadism kind of push him over the edge.

So what do you think, does Krane qualify or not?

edited 8th Sep '15 5:33:27 PM by MGD107

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#44185: Sep 8th 2015 at 6:29:03 PM

We discussed Krane before and we decided he was too generic a villain.

On another note, if we are discussing potential quotes, here's one for the CM Live Action TV page, from Teen Wolf's very own Gerard Argent. I brought this quote up a few days back, but it didn't go anywhere. I'll repost his speech here;

"Scott, can you hear me? Ah, you can. Good. Then listen closely because the game is about to get interesting. Let's put a real clock on this game, Scott. I'll give you until the last 30 seconds. When that scoreboard clock begins counting down from 30, if you haven't given me Derek, then Jackson is gonna kill someone. So tell me, Scott, who's gonna die tonight? Should it be your mother, who so bravely came out to support you? Or the sheriff, your best friend's father? Or how about the pretty little redhead who managed to survive the bite of an Alpha? Or maybe one of these innocent teenagers with their whole life ahead of them? Or should I do everyone a favor and kill that ridiculous coach? It's up to you, Scott. But you are going to help me take Derek down. Because if you don't - I'll have Jackson rip someone's head off right in the middle of the field and drench everyone you love and care about in blood."

edited 8th Sep '15 6:36:45 PM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#44186: Sep 8th 2015 at 6:52:03 PM

I like it, but its a bit lengthy.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#44187: Sep 8th 2015 at 6:59:15 PM

I do have one quote as well, from Quinn Dexter in The Night's Dawn trilogy:

"That's the path you embrace, Louise, that's what you are: kind hearted. Just by existing you are the enemy of the Light Bringer. My enemy. I hate you so badly I'm in pain from it. And you'll pay for that. Nobody hurts me and goes off to laugh about it with their friends. I'll make you the army's whore. I'll make every one of my followers fuck you. They'll keep on fucking you until your mind shatters and your heart bursts. Then when there's nothing left but a lump of insane meat bleeding its life away into the gutter I'll use the soul-killer to eradicate what's left of you from the universe, because there's no way I'll ever share a single night in hell with you. You're not that worthy."

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#44188: Sep 8th 2015 at 9:07:28 PM

I've lost count of Grune's votes. How many are for or against his inclusion?

[tdown] Krane. His character sounds like it had CM potential, but his deeds didn't go far enough.

edited 8th Sep '15 9:08:27 PM by ANewMan

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#44189: Sep 8th 2015 at 10:46:20 PM

Like both quotes, but probably too lengthy for the subpages (the Teen Wolf one may work if it gets its own subpage). I added Argent's one to the main quote page, and Quinn's was already there.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#44190: Sep 8th 2015 at 10:59:05 PM

Did we ever get the one with the Gemini Killer?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#44191: Sep 8th 2015 at 11:35:25 PM

[up] The quote? Doesn't look like there's any quote from him on the page. Speaking of him, thanks for reminding me: Would any of his actions be attributed to Pazuzu (or did Pazuzu do anything in the second film?)?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#44192: Sep 8th 2015 at 11:37:03 PM

Weren't we gonna add his quote I posted waaay back when?

And the answer is no, the Gemini Killer was a serial killer before Pazuzu even met him. Pazuzu is the one in charge but Venamun is a very willing participant and given plenty autonomy.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#44193: Sep 8th 2015 at 11:50:07 PM

[up] I'll look for it. Does Pazuzu do anything in either the 2nd or 3rd film that could be added to his writeup?
Ah, found it. And I said it was going in the quotes. Well, let me take care of that right now [lol]. I also found another one.


Anyway, Thundercats voting (hopefully I counted correctly):

edited 8th Sep '15 11:55:50 PM by ACW

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#44194: Sep 8th 2015 at 11:57:39 PM

I'll throw Mumm-ra a [tup] and Grune a [tdown] simply because he doesn't meet the heinous standard compared to Mumm-ra.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#44195: Sep 9th 2015 at 12:20:07 AM

Tentative yes to Mumm-ra (only because he seems too generic) and no to Grune.

edited 9th Sep '15 12:20:41 AM by Klavice

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#44196: Sep 9th 2015 at 12:25:49 AM

Klavice, what isn't generic by your standards in this, exactly? You keep saying that on multiple villains.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#44197: Sep 9th 2015 at 1:42:54 AM

Well about Krane, I understand he was considered to Generic before (I myself thought he was), its just I was wondering whether any of his more recent crimes push him over the boundary or not.

I agree, trying to kill the heroes and take over the world is pretty standard for a villain.

Genetically engineering child soldiers, experimenting on them, enslaving all of them and depriving them of even the most basic of human rights. Then setting it so that all of them would die (their are about a hundred of them) if he did just so they couldn't live any life that didn't serve him.

However is quite a bit more heinous.

edited 9th Sep '15 2:06:52 AM by MGD107

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#44198: Sep 9th 2015 at 5:22:50 AM

I think this Krane person might actually be worth discussing seeing how he tried to roast that woman and her 14 year old son to death and still tried to do so even after the kids came out of hiding so he could try to kill them. That is in addition to kidnapping about 100 people (some of them children), experimenting on them, and trying to ensure that if he died, so would they.

Anyway, to compare Mumm Ra and Grune's actions (note that Mumm Ra has more appearances and resources):

Mumm Ra:

  • keeps races enslaved with explosive collars

  • destroys a star and kills billions of people

  • murders Lion-O's father

  • enslaves the Thundercats

  • tortures Jaga for information

  • orders his army to find and kill the remaining Thundercats

  • tries to trick Lion-O and Tygra into killing each other

  • tries to collapse a flying city and kill everyone

Grune:

  • frees Mumm Ra knowing who he is and what he will do

  • tries to kill his supposed friend Panthro

  • takes part in the enslavement of his own people

  • watches Mumm Ra torture Jaga with no emotion

  • tries to kill the remaining Thundercats

  • tries to kill an entire village

  • tries to betray Mumm Ra

  • tries to drag Panthro in with him when being sucked into the astral plane

edited 9th Sep '15 5:42:20 AM by bobg

jjj
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#44199: Sep 9th 2015 at 6:20:05 AM

Well, with that extra bit of heinousness, I guess I'll give Kane an tentative [tup].

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#44200: Sep 9th 2015 at 6:21:27 AM

Don't forget about Mumm-Ra saying he'd kill the kids.


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