During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
@ACW
I'm going to rewatch Zoran's episode to see if he loves his wife. If memory serves I think he might. I already said in a previous post that I'd gotten Christakis confused with a previous villain who was less heinous; I'll be watching the episode he appears in sometime in the next week or so to see if he qualifies or not.
Weller does not qualify. When he was thirteen his mother sold him to an ephebophilic rapist as a sex slave. He spent the rest of his formative years in the "care" of said rapist, and is essentially just reenacting the behaviours he learned during that time period. He's also so compulsive that his moral agency would be questionable to start with; during his escape from the police, he actually brings along his final intended victim because he is psychologically incapable of abandoning his plans to kill him.
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Thanks. ![]()
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MUCH better. Not a Wall of Text but still conveys his heinousness.
edited 1st Sep '15 7:31:27 AM by ACW
You know I've been thinking we should not reconsider The Creeper until Jeepers Creepers 3: Cathedral will come out. I read the film will include The Creeper's origins so maybe we could definitely confirm if he deserves the CM title or not. But first let's take a look at him in the first two movies: his killing spree seems to be justifie by the fact that he's eating human beings for survive. However nothing says he'll die or else if he won't stop killing. Moreover even if he has to eat he totally goes beyond standard predatory instincts. He clearly loves what he does as he frequently toys with their victims when he could simply kill them and get over it. And let's not forget the horrible tortures he inflicts on'em. As for moral agency: he shows some human qualities like smiling sadistically or whistling his theme song. He's also willing to kill anyone just for inconvenience like the two cops from the first movie. Basically he's a human serial killer in the body of a winged demon. When Trish begs him to take her instead of Darry he seems to consider her offer for a moment, but I wouldn't call it a Pet the Dog moment. Consider what would have happened to Trish if the Creeper would have taken her this could be considered a Sadistic Choice.
edited 1st Sep '15 8:43:14 AM by ST89
I think I need to take the chance to bring something up: There's a difference between straight survival and prolonging your life artificially. The Creeper is not simply surviving.
I kind of think we need to revisit The Beast from Over The Garden Wall for that reason as I have an argument there. It's much like The Crooked Man in the Book of Lost Things who prolongs his immortality by devouring the hearts and lives of children out of selfishness.
as for Jeepers Creepers 3...we don't really know if it will ever come out.
edited 1st Sep '15 8:56:02 AM by Lightysnake
And I think we've had other monsters who prolonged their life but still counted (I think Peter Pan was one?).
BTW, MGS 5 and Mad Max (2015) come out today.
edited 1st Sep '15 9:49:13 AM by ACW
The point I'm trying to make is Immortality Immorality is a thing for a reason. The simple notion of "I want to keep living" is not necessarily a sympathetic motivation depending how it's played.
Tropers/Loekman 3: ...eh, yes
?. He make more things beyond his "original" mision.
On the Oz page, we have Claire Howell listed as a Complete Monster. While she is very despicable, I don't know if her crimes really stand out that much, when many of the prisoners have done far worse things.
to Wang
Now, I have 2 more potential candidates. Both are, once again, G.I. Joe villains. The one I'm doing right now was mentioned back when the thread was first getting started. He had an unapproved write-up and it was cut after a troper pointed out his lack of heinousness. Well, to that I say: Bullcrap
Spoilers!
Who Is he?
Cobra Commander is (shocker) the Big Bad of GI Joe Renegades and the leader of COBRA. However, in this iteration, COBRA is actually a "legitimate" business known as COBRA Industries, and Cobra Commander is the CEO known as Adam De Cobray. Cobra Commander is…not the prettiest fellow thanks to a sickness he has, so he uses monitors and holograms to make himself look like a trust-worthy fellow and all that.
What has he done?
Throughout the series, we learn Cobra Commander uses COBRA Industries as a cover for his terrorist funding, plague manufacturing, weapons dealing organization.
On the actual show, the Commander has commisioned Dr. Mindbender to build an army of slime-like monsters known as Bio-Vipers.
When 6 soldiers blow up Mindbender's lab, doubling as a COBRA Industries' pharmacy, the Commander frames them as terrorists and covers up the Bio-Viper incident. They spend the rest of the series on the run because of this.
When an online blogger known as "Breaker" continually spreads rumors about COBRA Industries, The Commander has a bomb sent to his college dormitory, filled with other students, but the 6 soldiers The Commander framed, now down to 5 after the lab's explosion claims one soldier's, Ripcord's, life, stop the bomb and protect Breaker from further assassination attempts.
When The Commander suspects one of his men to be a whistleblower, simply because he logged into Breaker's blog more times than usual, he has Serpentor, his pet giant Cobra, eat the man alive.
James Mc Cullen, head of MARS Industries, one of COBRA Industries' partners, tries to get Mindbender arrested (they kind of have an Evil vs. Evil thing going on,) however The Commander finds out about this attempted betrayal and sics Serpentor on Mc Cullen. The Commander then forces a nearly-eaten Mc Cullen to swear allegiance to him, then forces a metal mask on him, dubbing him Destro.
This mask is shown to be extremely painful when sealing on Mc Cullen, prevents him from eating solid food, and can only be removed by The Commander himself.
It is shown that COBRA Industries has built a dam in the town of Green Ridge, whose main tourist attraction is the river COBRA is blocking. The dam causes not only the town to lose much of its profits, but also causes a drought on the land.
COBRA Industries had promised after the dam had finished construction, they would share the power with the townsfolk. They were lying.
When the 5 soldiers, now going as "Joes," continually interfere with COBRA, The Commander threatens all of their families, and when the Joes acquire a harddrive showcasing The Commander's actual face, he has Duke's (the leader's) parents kidnapped.
He offers an exchange: The harddrive for the parents. Though it's then revealed he planned to kill them all (parents included) after the exchange was over.
When the Joes are captured by the military with the hard drive in tow, The Commander orders The Baroness to retrieve the drive and kill the Joes through any means necessary. This leads to her attempting to derail the train and kill everyone on board.
The Commander later sends The Baroness to retrieve a cloaking suit from a professor and ensure no one else learns of the tech. She ends up hypnotizing him into catatonia and blowing up his lab.
Later, Destro and Mindbender build a cloaked rocket that can transport Bio-Vipers directly into cities undetected, and they can then cause the Vipers to dissipate, eliminating evidence. The Commander orders them to test it on a mining town owned by one of his competitors, and to leave no survivors, not caring about civilian casualties. The Joes stop this plan however, infuriating The Commander.
The Commander then invites much of his competition to a party under the guise of Adam De Cobray. When they arrive, The Commander mind-controls them all, then plans on using them to distribute his mind-control technology world-wide with through their companies, but The Joes again thwart this plan.
The Commander has a top-secret lab create a lethal virus known as The Anaconda Strain, then has one of the more hesitant scientists poisoned with said virus. The Joes "cure" the man and send him on his way on a plane, however that was part of The Commander's plan to get the entire plane infected, let the virus spread worldwide, then sell the cure to those who could afford it.
When The Joes rescue a Not Quite Dead Ripcord from Mindbender, The Commander, on Mindbender's advice, uses a control chip to force him to turn into a mutated Bio-Viper that was the result of Ripcord's almost death and try to kill The Joes and the military present at the time.
This doesn't work out, and The Commander sics Serpentor on Mindbender, however Mindbender points out that without him, The Commander could die from his condition. The Commander relents, then beats down Mindbender, promising him that if The Commander dies, so will he.
It is then revealed that COBRA has been building an underground railroad system on the East Coast, and this has been causing numerous earthquakes acrocc the Coast, resulting in alot of damage.
In the finale, The Commander initiates his final plan: Use the M.A.S.S. device (a teleporter,) to transport his armies around the world and conquer it. When The Joes try to stop this plan, The Commander goes ballistic, hops into a suit of armor, and begins thrashing them around, cackling all the way.
When he notices Ripcord, he gleefully notes how easy it's going to be to dissect him, before finally beng pushed into a vat of Bio-Viper waste.
The M.A.S.S. device is destoyed, COBRA's forces are disbanded, and COBRA Industries is revealed to the wold as the terrorist group it really is.
The final shot is of The Commander crawling out of the vat, swearing vengeance on The Joes. Vengeance that never came to fruition after the show was (unfortunately) canceled.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
He's sick. That's it. He has some sort of incurable virus and has Mindbender working on a cure, but this is never played for sympathy or anything like that.
Heinousness?
Sets it for the series. Now, he obviously doesn't have the success that his other versions do, since this is still a kids' show, but he still has more attempted crimes than them both.
Final Verdict?
I know, it would be another version of Cobra Commander, but I still think he makes the cut with everything in mind.
edited 1st Sep '15 8:43:37 PM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Oops, my bad. It wasn't lighty. Here are the effortposts
.
Anyway,
Renegades!Commander. Who's the other character you're thinking of?
Dr. Mindbender, a Mad Scientist in the series, who is a perfect example of how an evil act is more heinous when commited by a lower-level villain than if the same act were commited by the Big Bad.
Here is my write-up for Lheu Brenin from Lord of the Rings Online. I'd like confirmation before putting it on the work page.
Lord of the Rings Online: Lheu Brenin is the treacherous chieftain of the Falcon Clan of Dunland and the greatest threat faced by the Grey Company in their journey to find Aragorn. Starting out as a reasonable man, Brenin quickly shows his true colors when he sells out the Rangers to Saruman. Keeping most of the Grey Company captive in his own village, he sends the player and Lothrandir to Isengard as trophies and slaves for Saruman. The player eventually escapes and rescues the Rangers and forces Brenin and his clan to retreat beneath the mountains. In order to flee, Brenin sends his loyal clansmen, including his only daughter, on a suicide mission to distract the Rangers. During their exile, Brenin has anyone that questions his decisions and any he deems weak thrown into pits to be devoured by monsters in the mountains. The player, alongside Gimli, finally face him beneath Helm's Deep where he reveals his plans. As a tribute to Saruman, Brenin plans on sneaking into the Glittering Caves and murdering the defenseless women and children of Rohan. Brenin spends the entire battle deriding the last of his loyal followers as being weak as they are cut down, only to beg for his life when he is finally defeated. Unlike most servants of the Enemy who are direct products of Morgoth's corruption, Lheu Brenin is a mere mortal man who proves that even one of Illuvatar's children can be an irredeemable monster.
edited 1st Sep '15 3:27:07 PM by LoreDeluxe
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.Now, my next candidate
Who is he?
Dr. Mindbender is a Mad Scientist in G.I. Joe: Renegades.
What has he done?
Before the series, Mindbender was already wanted for illegal experiments and the like.
In the series, he is under the employ of COBRA, and is working on an army of Bio-Vipers for them.
When The Joes stumble upon his lab, he tries to use them as Bio-Viper chow, but they escape and destroy his lab, with one of the Joes, Ripcord, seemingly dying in the process.
Ripcord survived, but was merged with the Bio-Viper material, and is used by Mindbender as a test subject for his experiments.
When one of his Bio-Vipers escapes, Mindbender was willing to let it roam free and cause chaos, but is ordered by The Baroness to retrieve it. He finds it in a quarantined town, where a few dozen people still remain, and he intentionally tries to let the people be ripped apart by the Viper.
The Joes start combatting the Viper, and The Baroness plans to simply blow it and The Joes up with a rocket, but Mindbender coerces her into allowing it to shred them and the civilians as a "test-run," when he's obviously doing it because he's enjoying the show.
When James Mc Cullen tries to get Mindbender arrested, Mindbender rats him out to The Commander, resulting in Mc Cullen's transformation into Destro, then tests his new Bio-Vipers on Mc Cullen's own men.
Later, at Green Ridge (the town with the dam,) the townsfolk realise COBRA is up to something and start trying to get them to stop building the dam. In retaliation, Mindbender and The Baroness pay Psycho for Hire Firefly to burn the town, and everyone in it, to the ground.
Mindbender then goes on the hunt for a real-life psychic to help in his research, and when he runs across a con-man posing as a psychic, he tortures him for information about any real psychics in the area.
He then finds the Brothers of Light, two twin mind-controlling cult leaders who subsequently mind-contol Mindbender. However, The Joes stop the twins, and Mindbender tries to escape, but the twins beg him to let them join COBRA, stating they will teach them their psychic secrets.
Mindbender agrees, then proceeds to horrifically torture them both mentally and physically to gather data.
When the Joes accidentally release a highly-dangerous Electro-Viper onboard a ship, Mindbender remotely targets it at Destro's castle in Scotland, not caring about the fact that once the Viper reaches land, it will cause countless amounts of damage to the world.
Mindbender later helps Destro make the cloaking missile Cobra Commander plans on using on that mining town.
When The Commander invites fellow businessmen to a party, Mindbender uses the twins powers' to help The Commander mind-control the party-goers. The twins are again shown to be in extreme pain.
When The Joes try to stop the mind-control, Mindbender hooks them up to a Mind Rape machine, but they are quickly freed, as are the twins, who make their escape in the chaos.
After The Joes rescue Ripcord from Mindbender's experiments, he convinces The Commander to use a control chip he installed in Ripcord to force him to attack his fellow Joes.
This fails, and The Commander is ready to kill Mindbender for his failure, but Mindbender blackmails him with the fact that he's the only one who could find a cure for The Commander's illness. And while The Commander lets him live, he threatens him that if he dies, so will Mindbender.
When another of Mindbender's creations escape, The Commander orders him to find it. To help find it, Mindbender tortures a witness through a Gory Discretion Shot who saw the creature last. Said witness? A 12-14 year-old kid. The kid was kind of a bully, but he did not deserve that.
Tracking the monster to the sewers, Mindbender finds The Joes, restrains them with a few Bio-Vipers, and continuously tries to force Ripcord to kill them by using his control chip.
The Joes break free, but Mindbender had a fail-safe in his Bio-Vipers where if his helmet that controlled them was destroyed, they would detonate. The helmet then proceeds to get destroyed. When The Joes point out this will level Brooklyn, Mindbender cracks a joke about it and ends up escaping while the creature who had escaped Mindbender sacrifices itself to save the city (it was one of the good ones.)
While building the M.A.S.S. device, Mindbender happily tests it on COBRA soldiers, who often don't survive the trip. The Joes show up, but one of them, Scarlett, knows how to get the machine working. To "convince" her, Mindbender and Baroness order Snake Eyes, Scarlett's best friend, to be sent through the teleporter, which is still not functioning properly and could kill him.
When Scarlett gets the machine working, reuniting her with her father (long story,) Baroness and Mindbender try to kill them all before being sucked into the teleporter when The Joes destroy it.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?
Nope. All of his crimes are commited For Science! or For the Evulz, and even when The Commander is threatening his life, it isn't played for sympathy and he still gets just as much of a kick out of his actions that he would otherwise.
Heinousness?
In the COBRA hierarchy, he's near the bottom. And yet, he still surpasses The Baroness and Destro in villainy, who are both way more influential in COBRA than he is, and, unlike every one else (even The Commander himself,) he's doing all of this for fun.
Final Verdict?
I say he's a
edited 1st Sep '15 9:34:02 PM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!So I came across something on the Sinister YMMV page, someone had written three entries I had to erase a couple of times. I know it hasn't been two weeks since the second film was released, but since Sinister isn't exactly a big name title, I figured I might as well bring them up here.
Because rough entry's have been written, I won't effort post them; I'll just show the entries themselves and give my two sents.
- Bughuul has been manipulating children into killing their own families in horrific ways, creating snuff films in the process, spiriting away one child from each family (the murderer) and turning them into his soulless slaves, and tormenting anyone who tries to break the cycle for centuries, apparently just For the Evulz.
I'm pretty sure we brought him up before, and agreed he didn't count for being a God of Evil, despite this the Villains wiki considers him a CM, but they use this trope very loosely.
- From the sequel, Clint Collins is an abusive bastard who beat his wife and son Dylan, who lived in utter fear of him, and when they ran away he used his connections to get the cops and Judges on his side, effectively using them for legalized kidnapping. His speech after beating up Deputy So-and-So about how he would beat up his wife for his actions then come and kill him with absolute confidence he'd get away with it, and then saying he was going to go "f*ck his wife" (again, a woman who lives in constant fear of him effectively making it rape) seals his status as irredeemable. Even before all of this is shown, the fact that Dylan's first response to seeing his father in the movie was to piss his pants in utter terror should be more than enough to show how much of a monster he is.
Yeah, he sounds like prime Asshole Victim material, and probably the biggest dickhead I've seen on screen (phrasing) but not as heinous as Bagul.
- And it appears that the apple didn't fall far from the tree with his son Zach, who is just as violent and cruel as his old man. Unlike Dylan who was disturbed by the children's films, Zach enjoyed them, actually SMILING as he watched the torture and murders, and is actually happy to return to his abusive violent father. Then he gleefully goes along with killing his family and filming it. When the gig is up he shows no concern for his mother or brother, only that he couldn't finish the film for Bughuul.
Zach sounds really messed up. His Freudian Excuse probably falls flat as it says he's happy to return to his abusive father, but the thing is it is common, for children to kill for Bagul while under his influence. However Zack wasn't motivated by demonic influence, but sadism and jealously of Bagul's apparent attempt to influence his brother.
All and all, while one could argue a matter of resources for Clint and Zach, with Bagul setting the heinous standing, I feel none of them count; Bagul is a deity with additional moral agency arguments, Clint is an abusive jackass but that's about it, and Zach is someone who most likely would grow up to be a serial killer, but here he's just another kid who works for an evil god, albeit willingly.
edited 1st Sep '15 5:20:59 PM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
To the Renegades versions of Cobra Commander and Dr. Mindbender.
@Ravok, Don't worry about another version of Cobra Commander being approved. A few other characters have several versions that qualify (The Joker has at least dozen, Brainiac has at least six, Eobard Thawne has three, as does Professor Moriarty, and there are at least two versions of Megatron who made the cut).
edited 1st Sep '15 5:40:37 PM by DeCarta

Having just red Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicles, I found that Fei Wang Reed's actions might qualify as a Complete Monster. Since this is my first post, expect some issues with grammar or some research issues.
Who is he?
Fei Wang is a magician that spawns directly from Clow Reed's unconcious desire to stop his lover Yuuko from dying. All of his actions are done in order to accomplish his own wish, the resurrection of the Dimensional Witch, Yuuko Ichihara (In Clamp universe, death is absolute and Yuuko is in a zombie state between life and death).
What has he done?
In order to accomplish his goals, Fei Wang manipulates and screwed the lives of millions of people throughout multiple dimensions. For example, he destroyed Kurogane's entire hometown, murdering virtually all of the inhabitants there using his summoned monsters, originally intending for him to be the spy; manipulates Fai to believe that he selfishly sacrificed his own brother, implants two curses on him (The first one, when he encountered someone with a greater magical power than him, his body will instinctively kill that person and the second one, if he is not the one who kill his adopted father Ashura, he will trap his whole group into the crumbling Celes), and tasks him as a spy to ensure that Sakura and Syaoran keeps on track; implants a Seal of Death on Sakura on her 7th birthday that will instantly kill her when she turns 14. This is done in order to force Syaoran to rewind time to the exact point 7 years ago in order to broke the taboo and makes resurrection possible (This also cause many people's lives to be dramatically altered such as Fai being born as a twin). With his goal accomplished, Fei Wang traps Syaoran in a capsule and creates a what would be a heartless clone of him before Syaoran implants his soul on him.
Once seven years has passed, he begins the entire plot of Tsubasa as he commences the Clow ruins ritual that makes Sakura lost all of her memories in the form of feathers and are scattered across multiple worlds. For a while, things seems light enough when Syaoran and his companions Fai, Kurogane, and Mokona manage to gather the feathers but then Tokyo kicks in and once he murders his own minion Xing Huo for helping real Syaoran escape, removes the heart from the clone causing him to become into a heartless servant and forced him to eat Fai's eye in order to provide the clone with immense magical power. From then on, he watches as his other plans unfold until the group reaches the original Clow Country where once again, he orders clone Syaoran to bring the real one to him so that he could use his body as the soul of the clone. But just as the clone and the real Syaorans successfully backstabbed him (With the clone dying in the proccess), he is in fact Kyle Rondart with the real Fei Wang back in the throne holding the clone Sakura's dead body. It is at this point that he begins to execute his plans; by using the feathers gained from different dimensions, he will make Yuuko become truly alive, causing an entire dimensional collapse in the process.
Does he have any Freudian Excuse?
None, he doesn't give a shit about his minions, the millions of people that had their lives ruined, nor the dimensions that are collapsing. His desire to resurrect Yuuko is not because he is in love with her, its because he wants to prove that he is superior to Clow.
Is he heinous by the standards of the story?
Absolutely, nobody has caused the destruction of entire worlds like him nor cause the deaths of millions of people but him.
Final Verdict
There might be some doubts to his placement as there are a couple offhanded mentions that he is an artificial being that is created from Clow Reed's with to resurrect Yuuko. Otherwise he has all of the qualifications to be a CM.
edited 1st Sep '15 6:29:50 AM by Loekman3