During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Regarding physical attacks: Kilobot has been shown to be both violent and powerful enough to cause severe-to-fatal damage to super robots. So, when he targets those same attacks toward flesh-and-blood humans, it would no doubt kill them.
Regarding absorbtion: Kilobot directly drains robots' life force, plunging them into a death-like coma. And while they are able to be fixed, Kilobot has drained dozens of them by the end of the show, and most of the robots he absorbs are never seen again.
Everything else: Things like the hurricane are stated to be srong enough to destroy the city, and in the whole Roller Coaster incident, the characters are terrified for Connor. So, by the show's own logic, the kids who actually did fall from the Coaster probably didn't land on a fluffy mattress.
So, while the words "die" or "kill" aren't used, things like "Time to say goodbye!" are flung around pretty leniently. Therefore, I think there's enough evidence that it really isn't an interpretation, but a fact, that characters are in mortal danger.
edited 16th Aug '15 12:18:17 PM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Oh, and on more thing. There are five onscreen deaths in the series.
The Alien: Blown up by Cubix's Heroic Sacrifice; Deserved it/ brought it on herself
Cubix: Dies through a Heroic Sacrifice while fighting The Alien; Didn't deserve it; gets better same episode
Klank: Dies protecting Cubix from a blast fom Kilobot; Did NOT deserve it
Maximix: Killed by Kilobot; Didn't deserve it; Gets better next episode.
Kilobot: Drained of his EPU by Zombots; Deserved it
Kilobot causes two out of these five deaths, and causes the ONLY onscreen death that sticks with a non-villainous character.
edited 16th Aug '15 12:38:56 PM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Hmmm, I'm still unsure. I'm reminded of a candidate I proposed, from Jackie Chan Adventures, a corrupt museum curator who tried to cause an apocalyptic drought in India to excavate treasures from its rivers, who was turned down because the whole show was too light, and I'm thinking this might be the case here too.
The only thing else I can say is that while Cubix is a pretty lighthearted show, when Kilobot shows up the tone darkens considerbly.
He's a Knight of Cerebus who puts dozens of robots into Death-like comas, regularly tries to kill children For the Evulz, tries to mind-control robots into destroying their human friends, attempts to use a storm to kill thousands, and plans on turning every Ridiculously Human Robot in the world into a zombie and use them to take over the world, among other things.
Threats of danger are never taken lightly. When a character is about to be crushed, blasted, or smashed, it's treated like they're about to be crushed to death, blasted to death, or smashed to death.
Kilobot blows though the heinous bar, has zero redeeming qualities and darkens the show in every one of his episodes. I'll respect anyone's opinions who are against him, but I honestly can't see why they would be.
edited 16th Aug '15 1:22:22 PM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Now, volume 1 of Uber is done, so it's a good time to discuss the three keepers, possibly four once we see more of them.
For those who don't know, the series is about "What if the Nazis had super soldiers for realsies?" WW 2 is about to end. The Soviets are at Adolf's doorstep. Germany is broken. And then...
The Soviets are thrown back. The Americans are repelled. The British suddenly find themselves under attack. Germany has created 'The Ubers.' Using a mysterious substance to enhance compatible human beings, people become super soldiers. The most powerful of these are the Battleship class Ubers, of which only Germany possesses. There are three: Werner Frei, code name Siegmund. Klaudia Hoch, codename Sieglinde, and Markus codename Siegfried (it's brought up in series Hitler fucking loves Wagner references).
The war drags on, and Germany even gains ground. Now, the Nazis have lost too much to ever win the war totally, but they can sure as hell drag it out in hideous detail for as long as they possibly can. Nazis, man.
Now, let's address monster 1, and he should need no introduction:
Adolf Hitler: The man with the mustache himself. What else do I need to say? He's fucking Hitler. Death camps, horrible purges, murder, awful experiments...he has the mastermind of the Uber program, Sankt, executed for not telling him about the program earlier even though Sankt saved Germany...Sankt calls him out for being an idiot madman who would've wasted them before they were ready just before Hitler has Markus melt Sankt's face.
Oh, and he has a ton of prisoners executed just cause, even though it'll make things worse for German prisoners in Soviet hands. Hitler orders attacks that kill a fuckton of civilians, horrible experiments and is...y'know...Hitler. In addition to throwing waves of his own soldiers to their deaths for no damn reason whatsoever.
Second is Markus, AKA Siegfried. Markus is the only Uber who is a violent, horrible sadist and relishes killing others. We've discussed Markus in the past. Klaudia and Werner aren't actually bad people. Klaudia is driven for revenge due to her disabled husband having died in Dresden. She takes no pleasure in her work and while she does rip Winston Churchill's head off, she tends to be a soldier doing her job. Siegmund is the same, and in fact only became an Uber to kill Hitler himself in a way that would result in Siegmund survivor, as revenge for so many of his comrades having died in the horrible disasters of Stalingrad, Kursk and 'men he loved' dying in the camps.
Markus by contrast, was a murderer as a child, having murdered a Jewish man, gleefully participates in butchering civilians and slaughters hundreds, if not thousands of prisoners. Klaudia and Siegmund absolutely despise him as 'the Little Sadist', and volume 1 ends with Markus leading a charge at American shores with the narration ominously informing us that America had suffered 1/35th of the USSR casualties, but 'that would soon change'.
Next? Joseph Goebbels. Remember when I saidSiegmund wanted to kill Hitler? Well, he does. He tweaks a valve in Hitler's heart when they're alone together. The Nazi high command conceals the facts and has a shapeshifting uber called a Geltmensch. Now, as this bears issues to the long term, Goebbels has decided to use plastic surgery to become the new Fuhrer, as he knows Hitler's speech patterns, voice, speeches, mannerisms and above all, vision. Now, what sets Goebbels apart? Goebbels has a bunch of prisoners horribly killed to get the process right and forces Sankt's former assistant, a decent woman named Scheele to use her powers to conduct plastic surgery on the prisoners' faces into a likeness of Hitler's face. He does this with Dr. Mengele's sick help, and it results in perhaps hundreds killed before Goebbels is ready. When he is installed as Fuhrer, goebbels steps up the war effort. There is no more 'victory'...there is Annihilation.
So here are our three keepers. We've discussed them in the past, and I'll gladly get the posts for them soon. Mengele is easily on the watch list.
Hitler (he's...well, Hitler). Amazing this'll be his first iteration that's a CM.
Markus; he seems the worst and most sadistic of the Ubers, and not Just Following Orders. You said gleefully participates?
I think yes to Goebbels (is he, actually...worse than Hitler In-Universe)?? But a few things I need clarified: Other than that, having hundreds killed...seems realatively low-scale for Uber. Though having them killed just to look like Hitler (if I understand it correctly)? Why can't they just say Hitler died?
Mengele's also likely a
, if he's anywhere near as bad as the Real Life version.
edited 16th Aug '15 1:42:21 PM by ACW
Couple of thoughts, not sure if all of these are still being discussed:
-
on LXG Moriarty. I had actually forgotten about him. I think Dorian Gray stands out a lot more- kind of in the same way that in the original comic the Invisible Man is the "real" monster, not the actual Big Bad. Come to think of it, that's probably why the movie has a heroic Invisible Man- because Dorian fills in for the traitorous Invisible Man of the comic.
Also, although his plan is similar to that of the Moriarty in the recent Sherlock Holmes film, that one has a lot more cruelty in his behavior.
-
On Elementary!Moriarty too I think. It sounds like she has potential redeeming traits.
-
On that guy from the Gu Family'
-
to Lamia. I'm not sure she does quite enough and she and Septimus (I think that's his name) are sort of equal in heinousness with neither quite being sufficiently heinous.
edited 16th Aug '15 1:41:59 PM by Hodor2
To clarify: Markus is the only Uber who intentionally targets civilians and who is sadistic about his job. He kills more innocent people and prisoners of war than either of his comrades, and even attacks Siegmund when the latter might have been speaking poorly of Hitler.
Goebbels has hundred kills by having their faces cared into likenesses of Hitler to have Scheele 'perfect' her 'sculpting' before he undergoes the treatment. He has the last 'perfect' one shot.
The Nazis tend to worship Hitler as well. He's become a symbol of Germany to too many. His death could destroy morale. Also, Goebbels is a power hungry sociopath. Goebbels is also ramping up the war and has the attack on America pulled off, so there's that.
I have my own candidate from Greek Mythology I would like to propose: Ixion.
Who is he and what does he do?
Ixion married Dia,a daughter of Deioneus (or Eioneus) and promised his father-in-law a valuable present. However, he did not pay the bride price, so Deioneus stole some of Ixion's horses in retaliation. Ixion invited Deioneus to a feast under the pretense of them apologizing to each other. However, Ixion pushed Deioneus into a bed of burning coals and wood, causing him to burn to death.
Upon killing his father in law, Ixion became the first person to commit kin-slaying in Greek mythology. He was forced to live on his own as an outcast due to no one wanting anything to do with someone who had committed a previously unheard of sin. The neighboring princes were so offended by this act of treachery and violation of xenia that they refused to perform the rituals that would cleanse Ixion of his guilt.
Zeus took pity on Ixion, and not only agreed to purify his soul, but invited him to Olympus as a guest. Instead of feeling grateful toward the god who was offering to save his soul from Tartarus (where only the worst of the worst go), Ixion lusted after Zeus's wife Hera, and desired to rape her (yeah, a mortal managing to rape a god or goddess, that I'd like to see). When Zeus caught on to this, he created a dummy of Hera to act as a Secret Test of Character. Ixion sexually assaulted the dummy thinking it was the real Hera. For this vie act, Ixion was strapped to a giant wheel for eternal torture.
Is he bad by the views at the time?
He was the first person to commit parricide, and he was guilty of xenia, which is a big taboo in Greek culture. His attempted rape of the queen of the gods deserves special mention. Pass.
Is he bad by modern standards?
Murder and attempted rape are two very serious crimes. His attempted rape is made worse by the fact that it was done to the wife of the god who was willing to purify his soul and give him a place to stay when everyone else turned him away.
Does he have any redeeming features?
One version states that he killed two people who killed his mother. However, this is not mentioned in any other version. He clearly did not care for his wife since he killed her father and tried to go after another woman.
jjjAlright, thanks for the clarification.
all three. Just out of curiosity, is Uber!Mengele as bad as Real Life!Mengele?
On the fence on Killbot; I can understand HT's concerns.
For Uber, I'll go yeah for Hitler, Markus, and Mengele. Shit ton of onscreen atrocities for all of them, and all hateful supremacist sadists. Also different types of villains: one's a dictator-warlord, one's an evil superman, and one's a low-level mad scientist. But hold on, does Goebbels really have no redeeming traits? Lightysnake is further caught up on that series than I am, but he and his wife Magda had an Unholy Matrimony between them that doesn't seem to be purely about self-interest. At one point between all the scenes of slaughter on the frontlines they do mention staying together instead of getting a divorce for the sake of their children.
By the way, at the rate this series is going, I'm expecting aliens to invade the Earth before the end.
edited 16th Aug '15 2:13:10 PM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"At the most recent, Goebbels and Magda are separated. He treats her with cool disinterest and she treats him with open contempt. His last words to her about the children are also about himself. Magda coldly responds "A philanderer who tried to feed them cyanide? Wouldn't you prefer lies, Joseph?"
Goebbels apparently changes when Hitler's dead and he sees his chance to ascend to the top of the Nazi hierarchy. he's clearly gone mad with power and is getting way to into the Hitler role.
edited 16th Aug '15 2:16:08 PM by Lightysnake

Lamia
Welcome to the world of greatest media!