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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#43026: Aug 15th 2015 at 5:57:39 PM

We can discuss him now. I have a post ready to go.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#43027: Aug 15th 2015 at 8:35:43 PM

Ah, so Agamemnon has a Morality Pet in his daughter? Generally most of the time if a character has a child and isn't abusive to them, I'm pretty sure they're not evil enough to be this trope. After all its Pure Evil.

I know Scar is a closed case, but did we discuss his relationship with his mate Zira? Zira obviously doesn't count but does him at least loving her enough to conceive a child make any difference? Again I'm not trying to start anything, I'm pretty sure the answer is no.

I know a lot of people use Fanon Discontinuity when discussing Disney sequels but I'd like this addressed if it hasn't been already. If it has, link me to the page that has that argument rebutted.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#43028: Aug 15th 2015 at 8:37:34 PM

I don't believe it was ever explicitly mentioned that Zira's children are actually Scar's and for that matter if Zira was actually Scar's mate. The implications are there, but there's no direct mention as to Scar's relationship with Zira. All we know is that she's slavishly devoted to him.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#43029: Aug 15th 2015 at 8:38:06 PM

He and Zira never once interact on screen and she doesn't even appear in the firs tmovie.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#43030: Aug 15th 2015 at 8:39:57 PM

Therefore, we can't really use her as a possible point. Interesting thing to bring up, but there's not enough information for it to an argument for a Morality Pet.

Keep in mind, if you don't have anything new to bring up, it's inherently a closed case bar a better writing suggestion for an already used entry. Sometimes new stuff comes up for old characters in a continuation of the original show, for instance.

Shadow?
Bioshock Since: Jun, 2013
#43031: Aug 15th 2015 at 9:07:30 PM

I'm assuming Alonzo Harris from Training Day has been covered? He seems to qualify as one, as far as I can tell he is a power hungry, backstabbing sociopath without redeeming factors I'm surprised he hasn't been added yet.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#43032: Aug 15th 2015 at 9:37:58 PM

Agamemnon might not count. It has been a long, long, time since I saw the movie.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#43033: Aug 15th 2015 at 9:39:06 PM

Alright, effortpost time:

Who Is He and Where Is He From?

I have just finished the series The Gu Family Book on Netflix, and I present its villain, the wicked Jo Kwan Woong.

Jo Kwan Woong is an official who rose from humble beginnings. At the show's beginning, Kwan Woong murders his old friend, a noble official after framing him of treason, in front of the man's family. He then takes his daughter, Yoon Seo-Hwa and gives her to a State Gisaeng house. Gisaeng are courtesans, btw. Seo-Hwa is tied to a tree outside for refusing to comply, where she is seen by a Kumiho who guards the mountain, named Wol-Ryung, who falls in love with her.

Kwan Woong then gives an order that he will patron Seo-Hwa for her 'bridal night.' Seo-Hwa escapes only by her loyal maid switching their clothes and dimming the lights. Kwan Woong rapes her, telling her to struggle and resist so he can enjoy defiling her.

When he learns of the deception, he has Seo-Hwa's younger brother hanged. Now, at this time, Seo-H Wa has married Wol-Ryng who has kiiiinda not informed her about the "I'm a mythical creature oh and your brother's dead" issues. When Kwan Woong leads a force to hunt down Seo-Hwa, Wol Ryung (Who is on a very...strict regimen to become human for Seo-Hwa) is forced to break the rules to save her. Kwan Woong manipulates the despondent Seo-Hwa into leading Wol-Ryung into a trap, where he's killed. Seo-Hwa gives birth to Wol-Ryung's son and attempts to kill Kwan Woong, only to be struck down by his guard.

Fast forward 20 years. Kwan Woong has risen even higher, and Seo-Hwa's son was adopted by a humble family serving the noble Lord Park who treasures Choi Kang Chi along with his own children. Kwan woong frames Park for treason and kills him, too. He then does the same routine with the Gisaeng house for Park's daughter Chung Jo, and has her brother tortured and brainwashed into thinking Kang Chi killed their father. He then rapes Chung Jo and rubs it in her brother's face, mocking her how she 'saved his life.'

It turns out Kwan Woong is a traitor as well, and has a large slew of magistrates and judges killed to further his conspiracy against the Joseon government, while allying with Japanese merchants. I'll save some time and fill in some of his worst deeds:

1. When Wol-Ryung revives into a man eating demon, Kwan Woong manipulates him into serving his own purposes with the promise of offering him the woman who betrayed him: Seo-Hwa. 2. When Seo-Hwa meets Wol-Ryung at last again...Kwan Woong personally attempts to shoot her in the back. Wol-Ryung rgains himself to block her as a shield. 3. He threatens Kang Chi into doing his bidding as a killer by threatening to murder Kang Chi's love interest and foster father and friends. He has Yeong-Wool, Kang Chi's lover, tied in a chair with a spiked weight over her head and she's barely saved from it.

Oh, and he tries to shoot Yeong-Wool in the back when it fails.

Freudian Excuse?

He was born from humble beginnings. That's it. He even denies this as an excuse later, saying he just found life dull and wanted excitement. Kwan Woong is driven by the worst of humanity.

Redeeming Qualities?

Impressive for a 24 episode series where he features a lot? Zero. None. NADA. Jo Kwan Woong is a vile, vile human being. He's a rapist, murderer, a traitor and routinely commits the most evil deeds of the series.

Heinous Standard?

There's only one other villain who can compare: the man-eating, soul devouring Wol-Ryung. Now, the series ends up doing Tragic Villain perfectly with Wol-Ryung. He's driven to hunt and eat people now, and has a dark desire to destroy everything, but the reality is he's tormented by the knowledge he used to be something better and can't remember it. He's terrified of slipping away completely and wants Kang Chi to embrace his non-human side as he believes humans will only betray and hate him. He kills numerous people, but when he and Jo Kwan Woong have their Villain team up episodes? Kwan Woong is the worst of the two by FAR.

So yeah, pass on the bastard.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#43035: Aug 15th 2015 at 10:10:29 PM

[tup] Baron Dark, [tdown] Agamemnon.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#43036: Aug 15th 2015 at 10:30:18 PM

Damn Jo Kwan Woong sounds like a bastard. [tup]

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#43037: Aug 15th 2015 at 11:20:32 PM

No on Alonzo Harris. Bad guy certainly, but he doesn't do nearly enough. He kills an old drug dealer to steal his money and tries to have the hero offed to make sure he wouldn't talk. Nothing to really meet the required standard of heinousness. These actions are also driven more by desperation than anything, as he's got less than a day before he's killed himself in retaliation for an offscreen incident. Aside from that, rape seems to disgust him, and there's a strong argument that he likes his latina girlfriend.

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#43038: Aug 15th 2015 at 11:29:45 PM

[tup] Jo Kwan Woong

Now, I've just finished rewathing Cubix, and am ready for an effortpost, but first, a little backstory on the series.

Cubix is an animated series set a few years in the future where robots and humans co-exist peacefully. Robots have emotions and personalities of their own, made possible by their EPU s, the robotic equivalent of a heart/ soul. The show focuses on Cubix, a robot capable of splitting apart like building blocks then forming back as different objects, and his human friends, The Botties, pre-teens who each have their own robot friend.

Now, without further adieu, I introduce Kilobot

Who is he?

Kilobot is the Dragon-in-Chief to the Big Bad Dr. K in season 2. He is a Power Parasyte who absorbs a robot's EPU energy to gain their looks and powers.

What has he done?

After being built, Kilobot is ordered by Dr. K to absorb Cubix's EPU, because Cubix is considered to be the most powerful robot in the series.

Kilobot finds Cubix and the Botties at an amusement park. After absorbing a few bots, Kilobot turns off the safety precautions of and speeds up a rollercoaster Cubix and one of The Botties, his best friend, Connor, are on. Yanking Cubix off, Kilobot leaves Connor and the other children to die by destroying the track.

As the coaster speeds along, one of the cars, full of nameless kids, detaches and falls. We don't see the results, but the fact that every character was concerned if Connor fell he could die, I think we can guess what happened.

While fighting Cubix, Kilobot damages a Ferris Wheel full of people, and actively tries to prevent Cubix from saving the people on the Wheel.

On his next episode, Kilobot is shown to be absorbing more robots, but when Dr. K notices The Botties' robots are slowly becoming hockey champions, he orders Kilobot to beat them and win the championship (Dr. K's petty that way.) Kilobot absorbs the leader of one of the hockey teams, and mind controls the rest of the team into doing whatever he says.

He then proceeds to brutalize their first opponents, despite the fact that, with his newfound knowledge of the sport he absorbed from a pro, he could've just a easily won fairly.

When up against The Botties, Kilobot is just as vicious with them, even when a human child is used as a substitute player. When he starts losing, Kilobot tries to kill the boy out of anger. During all of this, The Botties aren't even aware Kilobot is in control of the team and just think they're a really rough team.

Later, Dr. K orders Kilobot to break into a robotics corporation and steal the powers of a teleporting robot, then use them to try to kill Cubix. Kilobot again tries to kill the kids despite the fact that it interferes with his fight with Cubix.

Dr. K then orders Kilobot to absorb the powers of a weather-controlling robot, but the absorbtion malfunctions, and the weather-controlling robot creates a hurricane powerful enough to destroy the town. And while himself and Cubix are trying to fix the problem, Kilobot is trying to prevent them fom doing so, knowing the storm can destroy the city and kill thousands.

Kilobot later uses a dream machine to invade the city's robot's dreams and mind control them. K had told him to order them to serve K from now on, but Kilobot instead orders them to kill their friends, The Botties, and that he is their master now. He is stopped, and K never finds out about his attempted betrayal.

When Dr. K visits his childhood home and reminisces about his childhood, Kilobot scoffs at him and allows him to be attacked by one of K's old security drones. K finds his old robot buddy, Klank, who has become friends with Cubix, but the reunion is short-lived when Klank takes a bullet for Cubix, a bullet shot by Kilobot. Devastated at his friend's death, K orders Kilobot to retreat, to which Kilobot announces he is pathetic.

Kilobot later breaks ino the robotics corporation on his own accord, and steals cloning technology. He tries to frame a hero for this, and when it doesn't work and he is caught, he plants a bomb on said hero that will level the building and the hundreds inside if they do not let him go. They remove the bomb, but Kilobot escapes in the chaos.

Kilobot gives K the cloning device, knowing he will build an army of Zombots (Zombie Robots,) which leads us to the finale.

Kilobot takes contol of the Zombots from K, and announces his plans to take over/ wipe out the human race by turning every robot in the world into a Zombot. He duels Cubix, and actually breaks off the fight at one point just to target The Botties, for no particular reason. He then kills one of the hero robots, and while the robot gets better, this was a pretty big action for this show.

When his plan is thwarted, Kilobot flies into a rage and tries to crush Cubix's EPU, basically his heart/ soul, with his bare hands, before being killed by his own Zombots.

One last thing, when he absorbs bots, he has shown he is able to do it without any lasting damage to the bot. But Kilobot specifically absorbs thm to such a point that they're effectively put into a death-like coma. And while The Botties are capable of reversing this, they are only shown doing it to a very few bots throughout the series, and his victims range in the dozens, basically meaning Kilobot is a robot Serial Killer on a kids' show.

Freudian Excuse of other redeeming features?

Nope. The only possible thing is that for the first few episodes he seemed like he was loyal to K, but for his first few appearances he wasn't as smart as he would slowly become, so he probably just didn't have the capacity at first to plot a betrayal.

And, just like most every other bot on the show, Kilobot has complete moral agency, so everything he did, he did on his own discretion.

Heinosness?

The Big Bad of the first season, an alien's, most heinous act was trying to destroy the city, something Kilobot tries midway through his appearances. Also, neither K nor the alien attempt to kill The Botties unless they are at the moment attempting to thwart them. Kilobot goes out of his way to kill them just to be a sadistic creep.

And, barring a few cheesy one-liners, Kilobot is played dead-serious, unlike K, who is Played for Laughs quite often, and the Alien who has her funny moments.

Final Verdict?

A robot Serial Killer who regularly tries to murder children For the Evulz, has an attempted human body count into thousands, and has zero redeeming qualities. On a TV-Y rated show. Yeah, I'm going [tup]

edited 16th Aug '15 7:39:08 AM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#43039: Aug 16th 2015 at 1:05:15 AM

Very easy [tup] to Kilobot. Implied deaths, immense heinous acts, completely capable of emotion and has no lack of morality to keep him off, sadistic for the sake of it... yeah.

Shadow?
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#43040: Aug 16th 2015 at 2:34:12 AM

[tup] Woong.
[tup] On Kilobot, if he does in fact have moral agency.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#43041: Aug 16th 2015 at 2:42:24 AM

I just read an old discussion of Classical Mythology and I don't understand how come we included Tantalus but not Sisiphus? I think they both belong.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#43042: Aug 16th 2015 at 3:01:40 AM

Yes. Pretty much all the robots in Cubix bar severely outdated ones have moral agency. They were all created with a literal electronic brain that has the ability to fully learn and think for themselves. While some barely show it at times, the main cast fully shows that some have no problems taking petty revenge for something or otherwise. In Kilobot's case, he was not designed to purposely destroy stuff on his own accord. He did that solely on his own due to his choice. That's a key part of the settings, how all robots have freedom. While some are designed to specifically do jobs, they choose to do so. It's just their best ability. Sure, it's perhaps an illusion of freedom, but it's still freedom overall.

Shadow?
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#43043: Aug 16th 2015 at 3:16:21 AM

I'll solidify my [tup] for Kilobot then.
Sisyphus...I can't remember if he killed anyone. How does Tantalus qualify for only one murder (albeit that of his son)?

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#43044: Aug 16th 2015 at 3:28:00 AM

[up] Ambar proposed them both long time ago. Tantalus went on the list, while it seems that discussion on Sisiphus was lost. Sisiphus killed travelers.

A quote from Wikipedia

King Sisyphus promoted navigation and commerce but was avaricious and deceitful. He also killed travellers and guests, a violation of Xenia which fell under Zeus' domain. He took pleasure in these killings because they allowed him to maintain his iron-fisted rule. Sisyphus and Salmoneus were known to hate each other as Sisyphus had consulted with the Oracle of Delphi on just how to kill Salmoneus without incurring any severe consequences for himself.

I think he qualifies.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#43045: Aug 16th 2015 at 5:20:19 AM

I saw Stardust recently and I want to know if Lamia qualifies. I saw several conversations about her, but none of them seemed to get anywhere.

Who is she?

She is Lamia, a witch who cuts out the hearts of stars and uses them for immortality. She has two sisters who work with her, but the other sisters aren't as focused on.

What does she do?

Like I said, she cuts out the hearts of stars for immortality as Fountain of Youth, and stars are living beings in this movie. She also makes sure to make them feel happy before killing them because the happier the star, the more light it gives off and the more youth it gives. When Primus and Tristan come to stay at her fake inn meant to sooth and kill Yvaine, a fallen star, she tries (and succeeds in Primus's case) to kill them. When Laima captures Yvaine and Una towards the end of the movie, she decides to keep Una as a slave. When Tristan and Septimus try to stop her and her sisters, she uses a voodoo doll to break and arm and a leg of Septimus and then drown him by dropping the doll into a fountain. After her sisters die, she fakes sorrow for them to catch Tristan and Yvaine off guard and attempts to kill both of them.

Is she heinous by the standards of the story?

Sort of. While the actions above are portrayed rather seriously, she performs some lesser actions like turning a person into a goat and then turn him back human only to make him a woman that aren't taken seriously. And as serious as the actions she performs are, they are ridiculous to some extent (when she kills Septimus, he actually floats up in midair before dying). And even then, the dead princes become ghosts who MST the events that are going on, but it doesn't seem that Laima cares. Also, the fact that she cuts out the hearts of stars as well as her deception of Tristan and Yvaine towards the end is played absolutely seriously.

Any redeeming qualities.

She has a Bait the Dog moment at the end of the film. She claims that she doesn't care about her sisters, but she then reveals that she couldn't care any less for them. No redeeming qualities.

Final verdict?

[tup] for Laima.

edited 16th Aug '15 5:20:31 AM by SatoshiBakura

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#43046: Aug 16th 2015 at 5:31:51 AM

@Ravok: Oh, wow. ...All right then. [tup] for Kilobot. That's disturbing high for what I'm pretty sure was a fun-filled and very light-hearted kids show. O__o

And [tup] for Jo Kwan Woong.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#43047: Aug 16th 2015 at 7:49:29 AM

Tentative [tup] to Lamia

[up]Oh, it is very much a lighthearted kids' show. It's just that Kilobot is a Vile Villain in a Sacharrine Show. And that's what makes it so bad. His actions would be considered heinous in a show for adults, and he commits these things in a childrens' series.

edited 16th Aug '15 8:43:11 AM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#43049: Aug 16th 2015 at 9:37:34 AM

I know Cubix is a 4kids series, and they're a company rather averse to discussing the concept of death, so do they actually say the people and robots Kilobot targets will die, or is that just your interpretation?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#43050: Aug 16th 2015 at 10:22:56 AM

Honestly? I don't think Lamia does enough. She has a small bodycount, and when she turns Bernard into a woman, she doesn't seem to have any real intention of killing the poor guy. Septimus does just as much damage, if not moreso, to bystanders.

Lamia also has only one dead star in her backstory as well, and she doesn't take any action to kill her sisters herself. I think she's too basic to count.


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