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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#42826: Aug 9th 2015 at 8:31:23 PM

I will say yes to the Runescape villains and Moriarty. Also no to Gala in light of this new info.

edited 9th Aug '15 8:32:21 PM by Overlord

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#42827: Aug 10th 2015 at 12:23:44 AM

[up][up][up]Camberf, exactly. The do enough to count, but don't stand out like, say, a Marion Socia does.

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#42828: Aug 10th 2015 at 1:32:31 AM

Been quite a while since I've seen the movie version of League, but I'll go with Exister's judgment call here. I just have a hard time believing that an Evil Genius like Moriarty is supposedly acting selfishly by keeping his word when he gives up his leverage on Gray with nothing to gain from it, and is actually more likely to be hurting his own interests given Gray's lingering grudge. It's stretching to argue that must be a "maybe he'll be useful to me in the future" decision if there's no dialogue (?) to support anything like that. Keeping one's word in that context (and in a friendly manner at that) is a redeeming trait, so [tdown] on him.

^ Well, I do think there have been times when we ranked villains by their archetypes as well, so there's precedent for it. I don't really have an opinion either way on Moriarty's heinousness (again, long time since I've seen it), but if we don't qualify every Slasher Movie killer or every dime-a-dozen Evil Overlord, why should we qualify every Supervillain with "Eh, why not" arguments?

edited 10th Aug '15 1:41:39 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#42829: Aug 10th 2015 at 5:14:02 AM

[up] It's less an argument and more an attitude. Moriarty does pass the baseline of heinousness, and that's the argument for why he'd qualify. If he didn't, people wouldn't say "Why not?" Though now I'm not sure if he has a redeeming quality or not. I'm now leaning [tdown] because of that.

edited 10th Aug '15 5:15:39 AM by Camberf

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#42830: Aug 10th 2015 at 5:39:02 AM

I cut Gala from the YMMV page and linked to the post a page or 2 back; I'll request his cut from the CM page when I request this week's batch later today.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#42831: Aug 10th 2015 at 5:54:45 AM

Rewatching the scene, I'm not sure I'd say we can glean anything regarding affection from it. Moriarty invites Dorian to stay and Dorian tells him "I've lived long enough to see the future become history. Empires fall. Yours is no exception."

Moriarty smirks and says "think you're better than me? Don't forget- I've seen your painting," which seems to get to Dorian.

MrThorfan64 Since: Oct, 2015
#42832: Aug 10th 2015 at 6:41:04 AM

I have decided to put another bid for Solomon to go on the Whoniverse Monsters page. Here is the article that could go on: Solomon from "Dinosaurs on a Spaceship". He first seems like a wounded old man, but shows himself to be a ruthless and selfish pirate, who only cares about making profit. When the Doctor says he won't heal his legs unless he tells him how he got the dinosaurs, Solomon has one of his robots injure Brian, and tells the Doctor next time it will be fatal. He reveals that he jettisoned all the Silurians from the airlock when they refused to sell the dinosaurs to him and shows no remorse about it. When he finds the Doctor has Queen Nefertiti, he has his robots shoot the Triceratops dead and threatens to kill everybody else so he can have Nefertiti. When he captures Nefertiti, Solomon tells her 'I will break you with immense pleasure', implying he will rape her. He is such a horrible character that the normally light-hearted 11th Doctor subverts Save The Villain and leaves Solomon to die on a spaceship targeted by missiles, asking him if the Silurians begged him to stop. Even then, Solomon thinks he can buy his way out, thinking everybody lives by his standards.

Answer to points against Solomon: Some people are saying that Solomon isn't bad by the standards of DW villains. He may be relatively minor, he hasn't conquered or destroyed worlds, but Oswald Danes went on the Monster page even though his actions were relatively mild. There are quite a few morally complex villains in DW, but Solomon is meant to be utterly abhorrent, willing to commit genocide. He certainly lives up to the standards by which characters go on the Monster page: By the standards of the story he is meant to be really evil. His evil is played quite straight, evoking revulsion from other characters. He doesn't show any remorse, assuming everybody just wants profit like him.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#42833: Aug 10th 2015 at 7:32:33 AM

[up]Well, Danes DID kill and rape a child, didn't he?

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#42834: Aug 10th 2015 at 8:05:36 AM

Does the write up for Lathas and Iorwerth look good to everyone? I've counted the words and its still well under 300 words, around 250 or so.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#42835: Aug 10th 2015 at 9:08:59 AM

[tdown] Moriarty

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#42837: Aug 10th 2015 at 2:12:13 PM

Considering my write-ups for Lathas/Iorwerth and Bandos are around 250 words, I have decided to rewrite Sigmund's entry since I feel it could use some touching up and their are a few details missing.

Old entry:

Sigmund is a total xenophobe who wants the peaceful cave goblins dead. The first thing you see him do is try to start a war between Lumbridge and the Dorgeshuun. At one point, he even uses emotional blackmail on the character. And then it gets much, much, worse. He tries to drill a hole under the river to fall into the cave, drowning all the goblins, after that fails, he ties Zanik to train tracks in an attempt to start a war between the goblins and the dwarves. He relishes killing the player just as much as he relishes killing the goblins, such as in the Chosen Commander.

New version:

Sigmund is a total xenophobe willing to go to any lengths to see the peaceful cave goblin race driven to extinction. He is a leader of H.A.M., or Humans Against Monsters, a human supremacist-cult that believes all races perceived as monsters must be exterminated. Although, even his comrades consider his methods too extreme, and Sigmund eventually defects when he believes the organization has gotten too soft. His first attempt to destroy the cave goblins is to spark a war between them and the human city of Lumbridge, not at all caring about the human lives lost. When that fails, he tries to flood the goblin capital, but fails when resurrected cave goblin Zanik reveals his plot despite having previously tortured her to death. Unwilling to give up, he tries to have Zanik run over by a Dwarven train to cause a devastating war that would annihilate both races. After failing numerous times, Sigmund's final plot is to poison the cave goblin youth and personally lead his gathered army to slaughter the goblins as they're weak and defenseless. A racist and relentless warmonger, Sigmund served as one of Runescape's earliest and most evil villains.

edited 11th Aug '15 9:06:32 PM by LoreDeluxe

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#42838: Aug 10th 2015 at 2:46:56 PM

[up][up] Has redeeming qualities.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#42839: Aug 10th 2015 at 2:57:10 PM

[up][up]Pothole: For Example, or [[ForExample like this]].

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#42840: Aug 10th 2015 at 8:30:40 PM

I Am using my aunts laptop We should probabLay cut holloway sorry I am bad at using this thing so I can't make periods but we should cut holloway

jjj
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#42842: Aug 11th 2015 at 11:40:59 AM

Lighty, if I may, my requests for your next effortposts:

Thanks smile

edited 11th Aug '15 11:41:06 AM by ACW

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#42843: Aug 11th 2015 at 12:29:06 PM

I looked at the YMMV for The Lovely Bones and thought George Harvey could use a rewrite

  • The Lovely Bones: George Harvey is an antisocial loner, who is also a depraved serial killer, who prefers girls as his victims, especially children. At the beginning, lures and murders Susie Salmon, after which he decided to continue kidnapping killing until it becomes a habit. Harvey later tries to kill Susie's sister Lindsey after she obtains evidence proving his guilt. While watching from Heaven, Susie see's that over the years, Harvey murdered several other girls, including a six year old and his forty nine year old landlady. Moments before his death, he attempts to lure another victim to her death.

Also a little "Wait and See" update; after last nights Teen Wolf, I now have two potential CM's to keep my eye on, the Desert Wolf, and Theo Raeken.

edited 11th Aug '15 12:29:39 PM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#42844: Aug 11th 2015 at 1:19:52 PM

Beast, precisely how many keeps and close eyes ons' do we have on this show exactly now?

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#42845: Aug 11th 2015 at 1:32:08 PM

Just the Desert Wolf and Theo...I'm also still waiting for Gerard to return.

edited 11th Aug '15 1:36:14 PM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#42846: Aug 11th 2015 at 1:34:18 PM

[up][up]Well, so far we have 3 keeps and at least the above two on the watchlist.
BTW, is anyone watching the new Scream series? Would anyone count yet?

[nja] Damien Darhk??? He sounds delightful [lol]

edited 11th Aug '15 1:54:56 PM by ACW

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#42847: Aug 11th 2015 at 1:35:33 PM

ACW: Seeing as this is Scream we are talking about, we may have to wait until the finale.

This makes my current "Wait and see list"; Desert Wolf and Theo, Arrowverse!Vandal Savage, Damien Dark, and Mark Jeffreson.

edited 11th Aug '15 1:58:21 PM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#42848: Aug 11th 2015 at 1:54:53 PM

Can you spoil the last one? I know for a fact one user on this board hasn't played the game and wants to.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#42849: Aug 11th 2015 at 5:29:32 PM

[up][up] I think Netflix Purple Man should be on the wait and see list, one hand, the show creators are calling him a complex villain, on the other hand, I don't see how you can adapt Alias and make Purple Man at all sympathetic.

Also I thought I would post some videos of Nuclear Winter and people here can decide whether he is serious enough to count:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REd3zRkbktU&index=8&list=PLgIlPaX1MJFnQtXDLmmhTpqlZbn6B8IAz

Starting at 18:00 muntes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK_pFacXRIA&list=PLgIlPaX1MJFnQtXDLmmhTpqlZbn6B8IAz&index=7

Again starting at 18:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVnxAMficY4

At 24:00.

This movie has a cutscene before he became Nuclear Winter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5x6mV6Qd_c&list=PL98780DE1F8005246

Animeking1108 Since: Jan, 2010
#42850: Aug 11th 2015 at 6:54:53 PM

I would like to suggest the Brewmaster from Oddworld: Abe's Exoddus. Unlike the other Oddworld villains, who do their heinous acts for business or are cases of Offscreen Villainy, the Brewmaster gets sadistic enjoyment for what he does. First, he desecrates sacred Mudokon burial grounds and grinds their bones as an ingredient for Soul Storm Brew. The other ingredient for Soul Storm is Mudokon tears, which he gains by hooking his workers to an electro torture device. When you actually free the Mudokons strapped to the torture devices, they become suicidally depressed. In the Bad Ending, he will have Abe strapped to the torture device. When he orders his underling to put the voltage at maximum, it kills Abe. You may think that he cares about making the best brew, but when he kills Abe in the Bad Ending, he doesn't care that the potential source for the best brew dies, as he laughs manically regardless.


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