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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#42801: Aug 8th 2015 at 7:44:42 PM

[tup] Iorwerth and Lathas. They sound distinct enough from each other: Iorwerth the classic Big Bad and Lathas more of a Gold-Toothed Doctor-esque "Normal guy who aids the fantastic villains and doesn't give a rat's ass" collaborator.

Toivoa Since: May, 2011
#42802: Aug 8th 2015 at 9:00:06 PM

As a fellow runescape fan, definite [tup] to Lathas and Iowerth. Also will give a [tup] to Tayama, if the voting is still going. Has a page writeup been done on him? because I think he has enough votes to go forward.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#42803: Aug 8th 2015 at 10:16:56 PM

ACW, make sure you put Coffin Hill in the DC and Vertigo section, ir's a Vertigo comic.

Oh, and cut Gala with that info.

Iorweth and Lathas? Thumbs up, I vote yes.

Saw a coupla other movies with keepers, btw. Will get in soon. I just saw the films The Divine Move and The Taking of Tiger Mountain. A friend is also having me watch the hilariously cliche Skeleton Warriors cartoon and The Gu Family Book Korean drama, and I think the villains of all of those are fitting complete monsters.

edited 8th Aug '15 10:45:38 PM by Lightysnake

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#42804: Aug 9th 2015 at 1:10:10 AM

Yes for Iorweth and Lathas

Also, I took a look at the Complete monster that Buffyverse has to offer and I notice it has six, yet it doesn't have it's own page. Usually when a series has five or more complete monsters they get there own page. I just want to point out the issue

edited 9th Aug '15 1:13:21 AM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#42805: Aug 9th 2015 at 1:30:13 AM

That's not "an issue". There is no rule saying that a work must get its own page after it reaches a certain number of examples. Since those pages were initially only created because other subpages were getting too long, not too long ago we agreed to put a general stop to it because people had been treating it as a badge of honor.

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#42806: Aug 9th 2015 at 2:44:30 AM

  • [tup] to Iorweth and Lathas.
  • Got it with Coffin.
  • If Buffyverse gets another CM, we can probably do a subpage (especially if it's from the comics).
  • I don't think Batman and Superman need subpages.
  • Lighty, your to-do list has been updated (I assume for Skeleton Warriors it's Baron Dark?). Please look at it to make sure it's still accurate.
  • So I guess cut Gala?

edited 9th Aug '15 2:50:43 AM by ACW

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#42807: Aug 9th 2015 at 4:40:35 AM

Posting a few comments here on edit requests:

  1. Please do not majorly rearrange pages willy-nilly. These changes break links and render the whole system unstable. I've decided to redirect now-unused pages to catch some links.
  2. Non-alphabetic example ordering (as happened on the Fan Works subpage) tends to be confusing without usually imparting any useful information.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#42808: Aug 9th 2015 at 7:19:03 AM

Proposing a rewrite for Saints Row!Satan

  • Saints Row: Gat Out of Hell: In this series filled to the brim with mass murderers, gangsters and corruption, Satan himself stands out above the rest. A cruel and controlling fallen angel, Satan rules hell with an iron fist. He takes pride in administrating the eternal torment of souls, allowing souls privileges only if they benefit him. Satan constantly plans on mounting an invasion of heaven to get revenge on God, taking to recruiting souls for his army, forced or otherwise. He plans on getting leverage over a general by forcing his daughter Jezebel to marry them, and sets his sights on the leader of the Saints who he kidnaps. Satan disregards Jezebel as a possession, and even threatens to break her neck at one point. When Johnny Gat and Kinzie Kensington go to rescue their friend, Satan forcibly makes a deal with Johnny to let them go, so long as Johnny becomes his new general.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#42809: Aug 9th 2015 at 11:51:59 AM

By the way, I should point out that Iorwerth's master, the Dark Lord, doesn't count as a Complete Monster. It is essentially a dark piece of a Neutral Good goddess and basically lacks any moral agency.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#42811: Aug 9th 2015 at 12:18:02 PM

To...clear a few villains off my to-do...The League of Extraordinary Gentleman has the Fantom, AKA M, AKA Professor Moriarty.

The Fantom initiates an attack on Britain, in the Bank of England, with men who appear to be German soldiers, and launches an attack in Germany to kidnap scientists there, with his men appearing to be British soldiers, sparking tensions the Fantom plans to grow into a World War.

As M, he assembles a team of adventurers, consisting of the famed explorer Alan Quatermain, vampire Mina Murray, Doctor Jekyll, Captain Nemo himself, a grown Tom Sawyer, Skinner the Invisible Man, and Dorian Gray. He plans to actually steal their abilities and powers, while also sending them to Venice where he's planted bombs under the city and they detonate, starting a chain reaction of collapsing buildings.

It turns out Moriarty's plan was to steal certain things frome ach League member,, while creating a World War. Using each of the Legion's abilities, he can create super soldiers and armaments to sell to the highest bidder. The League attacks Moriarty's stronghold and Moriarty mortally wounds Quatermain. As Moriarty attempts to flee with his stolen gains, Tom Sawyer draws a bead on him with Quatermain's rifle and shoots him dead.

Moriarty sets the film's heinous standard as literally everything that happens is his evil plan or design. No redeeming qualities to speak of, and attempts to destroy a city and spark a World war for profit. Keep, I think.

I'll do a few more next post.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#42812: Aug 9th 2015 at 12:32:28 PM

[tup] to LOEG!Moriarty. From what I remember, he's pretty much Game of Shadows!Moriarty done in a crappy comic book movie.

edited 9th Aug '15 12:32:50 PM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#42813: Aug 9th 2015 at 12:55:10 PM

[tup]Moriarty I guess. Nothing that really seems to stand out, but no reason not to include him. Interestingly enough, he'd be the fourth iteration of Moriarty to count.
Incidentally, found this at the Elementary YMMV:
% % Moriarty has been deemed insufficient to qualify, please do not add or re-add her under this category.
Was this ever confirmed here? I don't remember if it was.

edited 9th Aug '15 1:08:58 PM by ACW

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#42814: Aug 9th 2015 at 2:50:00 PM

[tup] to Iorweth, Lathas, and Moriarty

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#42815: Aug 9th 2015 at 3:02:03 PM

It still has elementary moriarty in the CM live action TV show page

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#42816: Aug 9th 2015 at 5:32:58 PM

There are now 7[tup] for Lathas and Iorwerth. I'll write them up tomorrow as a duo and then move on to my final Runescape candidate.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#42817: Aug 9th 2015 at 6:25:38 PM

Late [tup] for the two Runescape guys.

[tup] For the crappy film Moriarty too, why not.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#42818: Aug 9th 2015 at 6:35:13 PM

All the "why not" on Moriarty is really making me dubious about his inclusion. I mean, maybe it's just because it was a bad film, but it smacks more of people not finding a reason to disqualify him than him really being a good fit.

Iorweth and Lathas seem like a pretty easy inclusion, on the other hand. Though I'm a bit concerned at how technically distinguishable they are.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#42819: Aug 9th 2015 at 6:41:16 PM

[up]I'm inclined to agree with nrjxll on this point. League!Moriarity is an incredibly basic villain who does generic super-villainy. "Why not?" Is not good reasoning to include him. Plus, there was one scene that I thought showed him to have a Villainous Friendship with Dorian Gray. After blackmailing Gray by acting as his mole on the team by stealing his portrait, Moriarity gives Gray the typical We Can Rule Together speech when Gray finishes his job. Gray refuses and Moriarity... Let's him go. He gives him his portrait and sends him on his merry with no hard feelings. Given that Gray is a pretty big loose end, fulfilling his part of the bargain with him and releasing him is a nicety he never had to do.

edited 9th Aug '15 6:41:59 PM by OccasionalExister

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#42820: Aug 9th 2015 at 6:44:12 PM

[up][up]I was planning on fitting both into one entry since their crimes overlap so much.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
sanfranman91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#42821: Aug 9th 2015 at 6:51:22 PM

Iorweth, Lathas, and Moriarty get [tup] from me.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#42822: Aug 9th 2015 at 7:26:16 PM

[up][up][up] I always interpreted that as Moriarty never wasting an asset and ally. Gray, at least, fought pretty damn hard to kill the rest of the League when he had to.

Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#42823: Aug 9th 2015 at 7:35:18 PM

@nrjxll: That attitude generally means that the character stands out among most villains enough to be a CM, but doesn't stand out amongst other CMs. Trying to spark a world war and destroy a city for profit is definitely enough to qualify. Whether or not he has a redeeming quality is another matter.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#42824: Aug 9th 2015 at 7:37:46 PM

[up][up]Still seems pretty risky to give back a guy who's just made it clear he has absolutely no interest in joining your Evil Plan and could very likely hold a grudge his one weakness. If he doesn't want to waste an asset why wouldn't he just keep the portrait as insurance? Anyway, just from his tone in the scene I interpreted it as Moriarity just liking Gray so I guess it's a matter of opinion.

edited 9th Aug '15 7:38:30 PM by OccasionalExister

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#42825: Aug 9th 2015 at 8:28:46 PM

Here is my first version of the Iorwerth/Lathas write-up

Runescape: King Lathas and Lord Iorwerth are two power hungry tyrants and the main antagonists of the Elf/Plague quest series. Iorwerth began his bid for dominance of the Elven capital of Prifddinas when he allied with the Dark Lord, a death-obsessed part of Seren. He cut off the Elven clans from communicating with their goddess, purged thousands of Elves in the ensuing civil war, and spent hundred of years hunting down the remaining rebels. In the present day he allies with Lathas, the King of Kandarin, who seeks to claim the entirety of the kingdom from his brother Tyras. Their master plan involves fabricating a great plague and having Iorwerth's clansmen, disguised as the Mourners, kidnap citizens of Tyras' kingdom and force them to mine a path to the Dark Lord's prison. They accomplish this by poisoning the city's food supplies and enslaving the civilians that appear sick. Lathas eventually tricks the player into assassinating his brother, but the player retaliates by warding the Dark Lord's prison. Iorwerth's last ditch attempt involves sacrificing the people of West Ardougne in a great ritual and using their souls to empower the Dark Lord, or failing that, using his own men as they are defeated by Tyras' vengeful soldiers. Lathas callously plans to turn the depopulated ruins into his own personal garden. In a world cursed by scheming Mahjarrat, rampaging Dragonkin, and wrathful Gods, the mortals Lathas and Iorwerth truly stand out for their willingness to sacrifice their own people to fuel their megalomania.

edited 11th Aug '15 9:01:46 PM by LoreDeluxe

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.

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