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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#42426: Jul 27th 2015 at 9:43:26 PM

Okay then. Any thoughts on Emerson?

jjj
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#42427: Jul 27th 2015 at 9:54:33 PM

Hmm... I see.

As an ex-Mormon, I think I've found an example in the Jaredite king Shiz.

Who is he?

Shiz is one of two Jaredite (the people of Jared in the book of Ether) commanders (he succeeds his brother Lib) and a bloodthirsty warmonger. The prophet Ether came to Coriantumr and told him that if he didn't repent he would be destroyed. Coriantumr cast him out and many other men sought to eliminate him. Coriantumr, however, was Genre Savvy and gave them a massive war. He was overthrown by some men after being wounded, but then his sons overthrew the new king and gave him power once more. Then Shiz's brother, Lib starts a full scale war with Coriantumr and though Coriantumr attempted to stop the fighting, Lib and Shiz continued to beat the drums of war and say they'll only relent if the people bring Coriantumr's head to them. After Coriantumr slays Lib, Lib's brother, Shiz becomes the main antagonist.

What has he done?

Shiz's actions start with his brother Lib, who attempted to overthrow Coriantumr. When Lib is slain, Shiz takes up the sword and sends women and children to fight Coriantumr and his army in the hopes Coriantumr will feel remorseful andc commit suicide so Shiz can be the new ruler of the Jaredites. Coriantumr fights against Shiz sending even more women and children against Shiz. The two armies clash killing many innocent bystanders, but since Lib and Shiz started the war, it's their fault, not Coriantumr's. Shiz kills plenty of women and children with his own army and Shiz himself. People were forced into joining one or the other's armies as they thought they would die. After many battles with Shiz on hilltops and such and after many close calls, Coriantumr wished to end the fighting. Coriantumr had repented, but Shiz asked for the head of Coriantumr and continued slaughtering men, women, and children. Shiz fainted from a loss of blood and Coriantumr finished him off. I'd say pass.

Does he have a Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?

Shiz has no excuse for his actions. He isn't even angry when his brother dies, he just wants to continue the war and kill as many people as possible. Shiz's brother is by no means a saint either. His love for his brother is about the same kind of "partnership" Relius Clover has with Hazama/Terumi Yuuki. Pass.

Final thoughts?

I think he does enough to qualify if, I dunno, killing thousands of women and children isn't enough, then forcing women and children to fight for him and killing them if they refused might be enough. He has no excuse or any love for his brother. I say yes.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#42428: Jul 27th 2015 at 9:55:18 PM

[tup] to Josiah

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#42429: Jul 27th 2015 at 10:29:19 PM

Quick question. Is is possible for an author to suggest one of their villains? Or is it only up to the public to suggest?

It's Spooky Month!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#42430: Jul 27th 2015 at 11:03:10 PM

We generally frown on authors submitting YMMV entries, including Complete Monster, as they aren't objective in the matter... as silly as that may sound. Or maybe they are too objective — authorial intent is specifically ignored when it comes to what qualifies. A writer may not see their work in the same way as their audience.

edited 27th Jul '15 11:03:33 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#42431: Jul 27th 2015 at 11:09:03 PM

To be fair, it's not forbidden as long as we get a complete picture to make a decision.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#42433: Jul 28th 2015 at 12:18:00 AM

With Emerson, I think I brought that up and his Freudian Excuse was only mentioned in a throwaway line.

EDIT: Here's what I was thinking of.

[tup] Shiz (heh, Shiz); his brother seems like no angel either.

edited 28th Jul '15 12:45:27 AM by ACW

BigglesTh9 Since: Jul, 2011
#42434: Jul 28th 2015 at 1:02:02 AM

How would the bottom three panels of this page be as a page image for Monster.Jo Jos Bizarre Adventure? The top two on the previous page could work too.

edited 28th Jul '15 1:02:45 AM by BigglesTh9

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#42435: Jul 28th 2015 at 4:46:12 AM

[tup] Shiz.

As for the whole fanfic thing, Lightysnake pretty much nailed it here on 42425. If there's a fanfic out there that isn't just a Kill Fic or a Troll Fic or some kind of story that deliberately takes canon characters and turns them into sadistic assholes for virtually no reason, then yes, anyone is more than welcome to discuss possible candidates. Otherwise, I don't think we should even bother.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#42436: Jul 28th 2015 at 4:59:07 AM

[tup] for both Josiah and Shiz.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#42437: Jul 28th 2015 at 6:32:40 AM

I'm giving Josiah a "yes", and seconding (or would that be fourthing or fifthing?) everything Lightysnake said about fanfiction examples.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#42438: Jul 28th 2015 at 7:24:22 AM

Speaking of fanfiction examples, have we had canon CM's count as fanfiction examples ? I ask because I am currently writing a mass crossover fanfiction, which includes two canon CM's as two of the stories villains.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#42439: Jul 28th 2015 at 8:04:30 AM

[tup] to Shiz

[up] Yes, two of the entries from Bleach fanfics are canon monsters, and there are a couple of versions of the Joker from fanfics listed as well.

Speaking of fanfics, why is there still an entry for Snapped, the Phineas And Ferb Dark Fic that's all about Isabella torturing the main characters, still on the Fanworks page? It certainly sounds like the kind of fanfic that we don't usually give the time of day.

Also, I think that the term Dark Fic is a bit too broad if we're going to discount fanfics because they fall into that category. We should call fanfics that are entirely about torture or abuse and which should be ignored 'Torture Fics', or something, because they aren't necessarily Troll Fics.

edited 28th Jul '15 8:12:35 AM by Camberf

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#42440: Jul 28th 2015 at 10:13:48 AM

[up]They would have to qualify with their actions within the fanfic, though. We aren't just going to go around listing Palpatine as an example for every Star Wars fanfic where he makes even the smallest appearance.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#42442: Jul 28th 2015 at 12:02:52 PM

[tup] to Shiz

Alright, I've another potential candidate. Looking back, he was mentioned, but he wasn't really looked into. The conversation basically went: "Do you think this character counts?" "Nah. I don't think so." "Me neither." "Alright, nevermind."

Anywho, I'm not absolutely sure he counts, but it's been bugging me so here goes:

Who is he? Ultron is the Big Bad of the 2008 Direct-To-Video animated film, Next Avengers Heroes Of Tomorrow, a movie about the Avengers' children.

What has he done? The film starts with Iron Man telling the story of The Avengers to the children, with framed flashbacks helping the audience along the way. The flashbacks introduce Ultron, built by Tony Stark in this film, betraying and murdering most of The Avengers. Iron Man was able to escape, with The Avengers' children, toddlers at the time, in tow.

Ultron then begins wiping out the human race, replacing the major cities and populations with machines. While his conquest happens offscreen, the after-effects (Cities populated by only robots, surviving humans dying of starvation/ sickness and living underground; etc.) are shown unobscured.

Years later, Ultron locates Iron Man and the children, now young teens, in the Arctic. Ultron barges in and attempts to kill the children for being "potential threats." (It's implied he wasn't sure they were The Avengers' children until later in the movie.)

The teens escape, however Iron Man is captured, taken to Ultron's primary city, and through a Gory Discretion Shot, is tortured for the children's potential location and everything Stark knows about them.

The children break into Ultron's HQ and discover a secret room, revealed to be Ultron's Trophy Room, filled with display cases of hundreds of dead superheroes signature items.

They rescue Iron Man, but are ambushed by Ultron, who taunts Captain America's son about his father's death, before the kids escape.

They locate Hulk living in the desert, then let Ultron know where they are, hoping Hulk will destroy Ultron. Ultron shows up, defeats Hulk, then smacks the children around. He prepares to vaporize them, taunting that, "Now ends the Avengers!" before being ripped in half by a reinvigorated Hulk, then tossed into space by Thor's daughter.

Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features? Nadda. His "programming" was to bring order, but between his Trophy Room and his egomaniacal and sadistic attitude, the programming is, frankly, not substantial.

Heinousness? Sets it for this film, which is a Lighter and Softer entry in the Marvel animation films. It's somewhat implied this is the same universe as Ultimate Avengers, but Ultron still stands out with the available resources. And while his worst acts (wiping out half the planet/ being a superhero serial killer and trophy collector) could be considered Offscreen Villainy, the after-effects, as with Serial Killers, should be enough to count towards his overall villainous actions.

Final Verdict? I'm gonna abstain for now and see what everyone else thinks, though I'm thinking he might be a [tup] for being megalomaniacal and psychopathic robot who's "programming", to bring order, is ultimately brushed aside to show how corrupt and evil he really is.

edited 28th Jul '15 2:11:07 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#42443: Jul 28th 2015 at 12:19:06 PM

[up] He sounds like he counts based on that description.

Pwnisher248 Since: Dec, 2011
#42444: Jul 28th 2015 at 1:45:27 PM

I think Emerson is a case of the Freudian Excuse being insufficient. Emerson himself makes no mention of it happening. It's mentioned by another character, and it's used more as a way to give the audience a bit of backstory on him rather than an attempt to give him a valid Freudian Excuse. I could see it as a valid excuse if Emerson had gone after the guys who raped him, but there's no mention of him doing so. It's just, "I got raped in prison, so now I'm gonna go out and kill a bunch of random people." It seems more to me that it's not really a valid freudian excuse, so much as it is Emerson basically deciding, "if I can't enjoy the holidays, then nobody else will either."

However, I will say that his reasons for hating Jude probably do have some validity to them. Beating him bloody with canes, and then allowing them to become infected and stinking reeks (no pun intended) of criminal negligence. Although, the reason he was beaten like that was due to him attacking an orderly during a Christmas photoshoot. That, coupled with the stuff he'd already done to get sent there in the first place, probably influenced Sister Jude's actions. She's shown beating other characters with canes, too, but not to the same extent.

edited 28th Jul '15 1:49:48 PM by Pwnisher248

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#42445: Jul 28th 2015 at 2:15:49 PM

I know we usually wait two weeks before discussing movies, but I think Pixels has finally put Adam Sandler firmly in this trope. Jack and Jill was his Moral Event Horizon but Pixels definitely push him into Complete Monster territory.

(P.S. This post is a joke.)

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#42447: Jul 28th 2015 at 3:22:34 PM

Adam Sandler was a Complete Monster before then. Eight Crazy Nights anyone? Grown ups? [lol]

PS: This is also a joke.

Shiz (god I can't believe there's a character in a religion called that) has 5 keep votes. I'll wait for a few more before working on his writeup.

edited 28th Jul '15 3:27:18 PM by Klavice

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#42448: Jul 28th 2015 at 3:44:31 PM

[up][up][up] Ok, that was funny.

Anyone else have any thoughts on Ultron?

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#42449: Jul 28th 2015 at 6:49:17 PM

Check out this great quote from Johnston Coffin:

"I want to hurt you. Because of you I will have to gather all my children back into their cages and break their spirits all over again."

This one's good too: "I am hired to fix these children for your Uncle Sam. The sad thing is, they just keep dying on me..."

This cover would be a great image for the X-Men page, but I wonder if we should go with someone more recognizable.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#42450: Jul 28th 2015 at 7:12:48 PM

There's a great one from The Night's Dawn Trilogy Big Bad Quinn Dexter as well, a depraved satanist, to a genuinely good-hearted person:

"That's the path you embrace, Louise, that's what you are: kind hearted. Just by existing you are the enemy of the Light Bringer. My enemy. I hate you so badly I'm n pain from it. And you'll pay for that. Nobody hurts me and goes off to laugh about it with their friends. I'll make you the army's whore. I'll make every one of my followers fuck you. They'll keep on fucking you until your mind shatters and your heart bursts. Then when there's nothing left but a lump of insane meat bleeding its life away into the gutter I'll use the soul-killer to eradicate what's left of you from the universe, because there's no way I'll ever share a single night in hell with you. You're not that worthy."

having played Episode 4 of the stellar video game Life is Strange, one character is officially in the running for this list. I won't say who because it's too soon for spoilers

edited 28th Jul '15 7:19:58 PM by Lightysnake


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