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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lunarcat Star Child from I'll be right here Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Star Child
#4176: Oct 26th 2012 at 9:04:34 PM

ho boy we got some problems with CM's in transformers prime

  • Megatron and Starscream established themselves as holders of this trope very early into the series:
Megatron's zombie army pushed him beyond the edge. And then, even later into Season 1, when he nearly killed Raf with Dark Energon, then boasted about it in front of the Autobots.

  • He didn't quite think that through. That one was so bad that Optimus Prime revolved to, and quite nearly did, murder Megatron for his many crimes.

  • Starscream shows his monster credentials right in the first episode when he murders Cliffjumper, and has a bad habit of gloating about it. Most Starscreams are fairly harmless and a Smug Snake, but this version is definitely a threat when he's not overshadowed by Megatron.

  • Starscream's gotten a little iffy recently; while he is an evil spawn of a glitch, he's shown he isn't without a sense of gratitude when he saves a webbed-up Arcee from Airachnid, then cuts her free.

First of all Megatron has shown to have honor and let Starscream have a second chance at joining the Decepticons. Second of all the write up for Starscream is just terrible, it even admits that he has some honor in hi by letting Arcee go. Starscream is also mostly played for laughs, he swings a fine line between Butt Monkey and Jerkass Woobie. So neither of those count, will take a closer look at the other C Ms listed.

All in all these guys need a cut, almost none of the decepticons, hell perhaps even all the decepticons, are not C Ms, they are very well rounded characters and have sympathetic points, (Knock-Out cares for Breakdown, Soundwave spared the kids and is very loyal to Megatron, Starscream is played for laughs and is tossed around so much he seems like a butt monkey...etc.)

edited 26th Oct '12 9:08:21 PM by Lunarcat

All our wishes can come true
DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Avatar by Leafsnake
#4177: Oct 26th 2012 at 10:55:52 PM

[up] Dear God... We brought up Starscream like two times already, I remember us saying no, to him, but he was always lost in the discussion. I still say we need to Axe him, he has at least 1 Pet the Dog moment, and yes a few of his actions are played for laughs. Let's hope we scrub him this time.

Soundwave: I would never consider him sparing the kids a good thing, just something he did for practical reasons.

That said, The only definite Example is Airachnid: Sadistic cruel, brutally murdered Tailgate, tortured Arcee, tried to murder Jack, tried to murder everyone of the Autobots, and Soundwave succeeded in murdering Breakdown, when she left the Decepticons, she mentioned going to other planets with the purpose of collecting endangered species, which she would kill all of the planets people to make them more valuable (We can see the collection onboard her ship), she tried to do that to earth.

Also, Megatron shows no real sense of Honor that I recall, just murder for the sake of furthering his goals. Desecrating the dead for a Zombie army, pursuing a horrible and bloody war just to prove himself right, shooting Bumblebee and almost killing the human inside (he didn't know the human was inside, but when he found out, he seemed quite proud of himself). He also executed his second in command Dreadwing because he was about to kill Starscream (the guy who keeps trying to kill him). When his minion Breakdown was captured by the Humans to dissect, Megatron just said let him rot.

edited 29th Oct '12 9:30:54 PM by DrPsyche

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#4178: Oct 27th 2012 at 2:35:32 AM

Yeah, letting Screamer back in was purely a matter of pragmatism. 'Honour' is not a word in Megatron's vocabulary, except in the sense of 'those filthy Autobots have no...'.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Lunarcat Star Child from I'll be right here Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Star Child
#4179: Oct 27th 2012 at 7:18:26 AM

got it, so cut scream and leave the rest.

All our wishes can come true
SophiaLonesoul Since: Apr, 2012
#4180: Oct 28th 2012 at 1:06:59 AM

I like Ambar's write-up for Karl Arnold, The Fox. The new write-up is more clear about why he counts and would feel much more comfortable about it being on the page.

Jacob Dawes: at the very least it needs to be rewritten and the parts about his death being awesome removed. Also I'm not sure that he meets the heinous standard. There isn't really a lot listed in the entry that isn't fairly common in series.

The Mole: Doesn't seem like he affects enough people. There doesn't seem to be enough victims for him to measure up to the heinousness standard.

Jamal Abaza: Not specific enough, no real list of crimes and upon researching the Freudian Excuse I think that it is sufficient. He is lashing out at people that he believes are a part of his son's death. This would at least imply that he loved his son. Not a Complete Monster.

Carl Buford: Bad example. No detailed list of crimes.

Tobias Hankel: Doesn't count. Each of his personalities has at least one good point. Tobias really doesn't want to be doing anything. Raphael thinks that he is an angel and is by default doing God's work which is always good. Even Charles won't kill unless there is what he believes to be a crime.

Charles Holcombe: The bit about his death needs to be removed but I am alright with him staying on the page.

Nocturna Since: May, 2011
#4181: Oct 28th 2012 at 8:31:00 AM

If there's no objections, I'll cut the Fruits Basket examples soon-ish.

SophiaLonesoul Since: Apr, 2012
#4182: Oct 28th 2012 at 9:54:23 AM

[up]There isn't anyone that counts as a complete monster in Fruits Basket. Everyone is damaged to various degrees.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#4183: Oct 28th 2012 at 12:18:19 PM

[up][up][up]Referring to Tobias/Charles/Raphael, I also think it's worth noting that both Charles and Raphael to adhere to a code of morality. It's Old Testament, but it is there, and as such they won't kill anyone until they have proof of their "sins".

Additionally, the show gives a relatively realistic of DID, which means that Raphael and Charles are both quite one-dimensional alters, which I would contend lessens their moral agency. Raphael is a fundamentalist's image of what an avenging archangel would be like. He can't not punish sinners. The woman he has torn apart by dogs? He does it because he thinks she's Jezebel, and in order for the story to work, she has to die the same way that Jezebel died. Similarly, Charles, who is modelled off of Tobias' Abusive Dad, can't not abuse anyone who comes into his power, because again, he's a scared child's image of what an abusive father thinks like. He has to hurt anyone he controls, because that's all Tobias remembers of his father.

TVKarma93 Since: Oct, 2012
#4184: Oct 28th 2012 at 12:49:58 PM

I would like to add Beau Willie from the film "For Colored Girls." The movie plays his actions seriously. He starts off as an abusive husband to his wife, Crystal and an alcoholic with drinking problems. When he accuses his wife for having an affair, me manipulates his children to go towards him. Then he picks up the children and then hang them over a 10 story window, trying to kill them because Crystal refuses to marry him. The people outside the apartment are horrified and shocked, as one lady screams for help to save the children. Unfortunately, nobody is able to save the children and Beau Willie lets them fall to their death. He ends up going to jail for it though.

edited 28th Oct '12 12:50:18 PM by TVKarma93

Jordan Azor Ahai from Westeros Since: Jan, 2001
Azor Ahai
#4185: Oct 28th 2012 at 2:19:46 PM

Is that a Lifetime Movie of the Week by any chance? Also, "an alcoholic with drinking problems"? Sounds more like an example of a horrible person who crossed the Moral Event Horizon (by killing his children) than a Complete Monster. Also, the fact he was jailed really has no issue on whether or not he qualifies (the fact a character is or isn't a Karma Houdini has no bearing on this trope).

Oh, I just saw that examples were added to It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. As was discussed before, I'm pretty sure that show thrives too much on Crosses the Line Twice / Dead Baby Comedy for anyone to count (also, don't watch the show, but question the likelihood that someone's nasty mother would rank equally to a possible serial killer). Could someone maybe add a note to the page?

edited 28th Oct '12 2:41:12 PM by Jordan

Hodor
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#4186: Oct 28th 2012 at 3:56:43 PM

Criminal Minds clean up: So, unless I'm mistaken, Sophia Lonesoul's commentary means there are now five of us (Largo, Footsteps, myself, Occasional Exister, and her) in favour of axing the Jacob Dawes, The Mole/Bruno Hawkes, Jamal Abaza, and Carl Buford examples. I'll make the requests to remove them tonight.

Further input from anyone regarding the rest of the examples (The Fox, Tobias, etc) would be much appreciated.

edited 28th Oct '12 3:58:12 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

SophiaLonesoul Since: Apr, 2012
#4187: Oct 28th 2012 at 5:47:44 PM

More on the Criminal Minds examples:

Floyd Feylinn Ferell: If he feels guilt about his actions then he can't be a complete monster.

Glenn Hill: Offscreen villainy doesn't count

George Foyet, aka The Boston Reaper: No contention there. He sure does count.

Danny Murphy: I think that entry needs to be expanded a little bit. I haven't watch that episode but I have heard parts of it described. The bit about Prentiss' opinion needs to be removed though as it is irrelevant.

Anita from "Mosley Lane": From the sounds of things I think that she might count but the write-up should probably be redone.

Omar Morales: Need more information for him to count. Sounds nasty but I don't think that he meets the heinous standard.

Ronald Boyd: Possible but at the very least the bit about the sympathetic character being killed should be removed.

"The Internet Is Forever": That is just confusing. If nobody can provide an explanation then I say that it should be cut.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#4188: Oct 28th 2012 at 6:25:37 PM

[up]What the entry doesn't mention is that Morales is one of Boyd's victims. He doesn't even do anything onscreen. In my personal opinion, he should probably be cut for Offscreen Villainy.

With five votes in favour I've requested that Glenn Hill, Feylinn, and "The Internet Is Forever" be removed. Occasional Exister, myself, Sophia Lonesoul, and Largo all gave reasons to axe them and 32_Footsteps agreed with all examples not otherwise specified from Largo's post. Have made the request.

Given some of the contention over the example I thought I'd post a possible rewrite for Danny Murphy.

Here's the original entry:

  • Danny Murphy from "A Shade of Gray", who killed his seven-year-old brother by force-feeding him pieces of model planes. He's notable as one of the few underaged killers on this show with no Freudian Excuse whatsoever. Prentiss felt that he could be at least slightly less messed up with psychological help, however, so at least in her book, he's not entirely over the line.

My (unspoilered) rewrite:

  • Danny Murphy from "A Shade of Grey" has the distinction of being the youngest, and one of the most unrepentant UnSubs in the history of the show, possessing no Freudian Excuse whatsoever. A "textbook sociopath," according to Prentiss, Danny, at the age of nine, is a near emotionless child whose reaction when his seven year old brother, Kyle, broke his model plane was to forcefeed Kyle plane parts, choking him to death while Kyle tried to apologise. He then convinces his parents that it was an accident, and gets them to cover up for him, while he goes on with his life, totally unaffected. When interviewed by Prentiss, Danny displays nothing but anger and resentment towards his brother, complaining about how his parents made him play with Kyle, despite the latter being a "whiner" and a "baby". In response to Prentiss' questions about the murder Danny says "He was always breaking my stuff. I'm not gonna miss that." Concerned only with whether he'll get in trouble, totally unashamed of his actions, and far more interested in watching cartoons and eating potato chips than making amends, Danny's explosive temper and inability to love mark him out for instituionalisation, in spite of his young age.

As I've mentioned in a previous post, I personally think that Danny's lack of remorse (or any other emotions beyond anger), and the pride he takes in his crime, coupled with the truly horrific nature of it (and the fact that he killed his brother, who he's lived with for most of his life, rather than a stranger like most killers on the show do) and the fact that he's every bit as evil as he can be given the limitations of his age and size mark him out for CM'dom. He's certainly memorable, as the youngest killer on the show, and only The Boston Reaper equals his Lack of Empathy.

edited 29th Oct '12 9:34:34 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

#4189: Oct 28th 2012 at 7:52:13 PM

Would anyone who's familiar with the later installments be willing to contest the Lyrical Nanoha page?

This one in particular:

* Huckebeins Veyron and Cypha, courtesy of Force. Where do we begin? Veyron is introduced sitting around with dead nuns around him, heavily implying that he killed them. Cypha displays complete ignorance of the many people she's murdered, though she admits that she wouldn't have killed them if she could have helped it, indicating that she was about to go crazy because of her disease, mocks Signum for bringing it up, then nearly kills her while saying the same fate awaits anyone who tries to stop their killings. To be fair, Signum was attacking her with lethal force to begin with before she knew that Cypha was able to regenerate. This might extend to the rest of the family, except Stella, because of her young age (but even she sees nothing wrong with all the killing), but these two are easily the most vile so far.

Is quite iffy to me. Killing people doesn't make a character a CM, and the example even said that Cypha wouldn't have killed him if she could help it. Furthermore, unless I'm mistaken, then both characters' actions were off-screen.

Precia definitely qualifies, at least as far as the main continuity is concerned. I haven't gotten to far into Striker S, but both Quattro and Jail sound like they qualify.

Time to leave them all behind
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#4190: Oct 28th 2012 at 8:32:08 PM

[up]Based on that write up I would say cut both. It uses a lot of words and phrases that are good indications it doesn't count, and ultimately they're just killers who don't even have the edge of doing it on a massive scale.

#4191: Oct 28th 2012 at 8:47:42 PM

Alright, I'll need a few more responses before I chainsaw them though.

Time to leave them all behind
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#4192: Oct 28th 2012 at 10:33:24 PM

Criminal Minds clean up—possible rewrite for Anita Roycewood.

Original entry:

  • "Mosley Lane" gives us Anita, the creepy old lady who grew up in a funeral home and has her husband kidnap young children for her to raise as her own. When the children get either too old or too troublesome, she has her husband Roger dump them in the crematorium out back. They're considered by fans as the worst villains in the series, even worse than the Reaper. Anita is the far more evil of the duo, even molesting several of the children on top of beating them. She's the one who does the burning too. One of the first children she took, Charlie, has developed Stockholm Syndrome, which Anita uses to make him snatch more children for her.

Rewrite:

  • "Mosley Lane" gives us Anita Roycewood, a serial kidnapper and child murderer, who forces her submissive husband, Roger, and first kidnap victim, Charlie Hillridge to help her abduct and imprison children. Keeping the children locked up in a hidden hallway, Anita renames them, dyes their hair, and is implied to sexually abuse them, using fear, beatings, and threats to the other children to keep them in line. When the children grow too old for her liking, or become uncontrollable, Anita knocks them out (in the case of Steven Shepherd beating him savagely beforehand), places them in a cardboard box, and burns them alive in a crematorium, whistling jauntily the entire time. When the police catch onto her, Anita abandons Roger, and takes the three remaining children, Aimee Lynch, Mae Hall, and Charlie to the crematorium, where she tries to force Charlie to help her burn the other two; she then intends to kill him. Guilty of some of the most callous crimes yet shown on the show, and viewing her victims as replaceable, Anita earned the undying hatred of the entire fandom and the cast in only one episode.

edited 3rd Dec '12 4:38:07 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#4193: Oct 28th 2012 at 11:13:51 PM

The last sentence is probably unnecessary.

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#4194: Oct 28th 2012 at 11:28:46 PM

I have to agree, that the fans hate her more than anyone else is irrelevant to the entry.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#4195: Oct 29th 2012 at 9:33:25 AM

I thought that might be the case, but the writer in me insisted on trying to end the entry on a strong note. Let's try again.

  • "Mosley Lane" gives us Anita Roycewood, a serial kidnapper and child murderer, who forces her submissive husband, Roger, and first kidnap victim, Charlie Hillridge to help her abduct and imprison children. Keeping the children locked up in a hidden hallway, Anita renames them, dyes their hair, and is implied to sexually abuse them, using fear, beatings, and threats to the other children to keep them in line. When the children grow too old for her liking, or become uncontrollable, Anita knocks them out (in the case of Steven Shepherd beating him savagely beforehand), places them in a cardboard box, and burns them alive in a crematorium, whistling jauntily the entire time. When the police catch onto her, Anita abandons Roger, and takes the three remaining children, Aimee Lynch, Mae Hall, and Charlie to the crematorium, where she tries to force Charlie to help her burn the other two; she then intends to kill him. Guilty of some of the most callous crimes yet shown on the show, and viewing her victims as replaceable, Anita's reasons for doing what she does are never explored, leaving only an utterly hateful cipher for the cast and the audience to deal with.

edited 30th Oct '12 8:45:42 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

SophiaLonesoul Since: Apr, 2012
#4196: Oct 29th 2012 at 1:29:07 PM

[up]That is a much better write-up. Your write-up for Danny Murphy also looks good.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#4197: Oct 29th 2012 at 2:35:28 PM

@Ambar: Good write-ups.

@4189: That's a really confusing entry. Cypha definitely sounds like she doesn't count. Veyron might, but really I think the whole thing should be axed.

There are some examples on the Suikoden subpage up I'd like to bring up. I'm not sure the following three qualify for the trope:

  • Lord Gorudo from Suikoden II: Appearing in the same game as Luca Blight, the series’ definitive Complete Monster, he’s already facing an uphill battle to meet the heinous standard. His entry says that he turned away refugees seeking safety, dooming them in the process, and attempted to assassinate Riou and Jowy while in the middle of peacetalks. When Nanami gets in the way of his assassins’ arrows, he has her killed. He sounds bad but his actions seem standard for an evil aristocrat, and the entry itself says he’s nowhere near as vile as Luca Blight. I vote cut.
  • Childerich from Suikoden V: A Nether Gate assassin, Childerich acted as Gizel Godwin’s Champion in an event known as the Sacred Games. The Sacred Games are a tournament where the winner, or rather whoever the winner worked for, became the husband of the future Queen of Falena, thus gaining enormous political power. As a gladiator in the games Childerich killed anyone who faced him… and that's pretty much all the info I can find out on the guy. He’s described as a Luca Blight Expy, who’s incredibly sadistic and loves killing as many people as possible, for even the most minor of transgressions. However, all I could find out about him is that he attempted to kill the Prince and killed his opponents in the arena. Seems like standard Psycho for Hire behavior. Unless more information is forthcoming, I think he fails the heinous standard and should be cut.
  • Valfred from Suikoden Tierkreis: His entry says he RetGones an entire country, manipulates a girl who sees him as a father, and later plans on killing her. However, he’s also a Well-Intentioned Extremist driven to evil over the death of his family. His goal, apparently, is to summon the One King who will merge all realities with the King's own. This will allow all of realities' inhabitants to relive the greatest day of their lives forever. Valfred wants to do this to be reunited with his family. In short Well-Intentioned Extremist and has loved ones. Definitely vote cut.

There is an example I believe does count, but it’s just poorly written on the page. Here’s the current entry:

  • Neclord, from both Suikoden I and Suikoden II, qualifies. He likes to abduct women as well as slaughter the city of North Window out of boredom. Viktor, being from that city, battles him twice and finally ends him in Tinto with Sierra and Kahn's help.

Here’s my suggestion for a rewrite:

  • Neclord from Suikoden I and Suikoden II. There once existed a place inhabited by peaceful vampires called Blue Moon Village. Under the power of the Blue Moon Rune, the vampires of the village were able to live without preying upon humans for blood. Neclord, in his lust for power, allowed himself to be turned into a vampire, ingratiated himself into the village, then stole the rune from the village’s altar. This resulted in the vampires of the town being forced to choose between killing people to extend their lives, or to perish themselves. Desiring more power still, Neclord joined forces with Windy and decimated places like the Village of the Hidden Rune to obtain more True Runes. He also, on a whim, massacred the inhabitants of North Window and zombified them all to serve as troops in his undead army. He later did the same thing to the soldiers of Lorimar Fortress after Windy made him Lorimar’s governor. During his time as governor, he forced the people of Lorimar to sacrifice one young woman a year to be his bride. After his defeat in Suikoden I, Neclord returned to North Window and began abducting women who strayed too close to the village. Eventually he attacked Tinto City, hoping to take it over and make a zombie kingdom for himself. During this time he also abducted Lo Wen and Lilly Pendragon, the daughter of Tinto’s mayor, to be his brides.

edited 29th Oct '12 2:48:30 PM by OccasionalExister

AquaRegia Since: Jun, 2011
#4198: Oct 29th 2012 at 2:55:09 PM

[up]Never played Tiekreis, but Gorudo and Childerich definitely don't count. Gorudo really is just evil aristocrat #6974; the only genuinely horrible thing he does is try to assassinate Jowy and Riou, and well, assassins aren't uncommon in a universe where every protagonist is a general. Turning away those refugees was harsh, but also pragmatic; he was a dick about it, but I wouldn't blame him when the alternative was to have Luca Blight (who was right behind them) slaughter him and everyone in Matilda. Childerich does also kill a few protestors, but even within Suikoden V, his few, mindless murders are small compared to the machinations of the Godwin family (genocide, for one). Since every game is temporally connected, I'd say he also needs to match up to Luca Blight, and he sure as heck does not.

Also, I never finished Suikoden I, but Windy just seems like a standard Evil Overlord. Not really impressed by anything in that entry.

edited 29th Oct '12 2:56:42 PM by AquaRegia

SophiaLonesoul Since: Apr, 2012
#4199: Oct 29th 2012 at 6:12:35 PM

Continuing my way through the Criminal Minds list:

James Stanworth: Doesn't feel like it matches up to other examples from Criminal minds. Bad but a pretty small victim count.

Lucy: Already discussed her earlier in the forum. Dear God does she count.

Cy Bradstone: definitely counts and Ambar's write-up nicely merges the bullet points together.

Randy Slade: Doesn't count. He doesn't really get enough screen-time as he only shows up in flashbacks and is fairly small potatoes for Criminal Minds. Also I don't think that we are given any indication that he didn't like his younger brother. Also he does include people that his accomplice didn't like in the group that he tried to blow up.

Hamilton Bartholomew: Cut. Serial rapist while bad isn't really up to Criminal Mind standards.

Clark Preston: Possible but the write-up needs a clean up. The use of italics should be removed and the bit about avoiding Karma Houdini as well.

J.B. Allen: Needs a better write-up but I am inclined to keep.

Malcolm Ford: Not heinous enough. The bullet point afterwards also needs to go because of the no groups rule.

The Un Sub's horrifically abusive grandmother in "Profiling 101": My only question about this one is if this is onscreen or not. The last sentence is irrelevant regardless and needs to go.

EDIT: Having not seen the many of the episodes in question if any of the ones I have mentioned as potential keeps' crimes occur off-screen by all means cut them

edited 29th Oct '12 6:17:16 PM by SophiaLonesoul

#4200: Oct 29th 2012 at 7:13:16 PM

Alright, I have two votes in favor of cutting Cypha and Veyron. I'll just wait for one more vote in favor before actually cutting them. I'd wait for more, but this thread moves pretty fast.

And if any Nanoha fans want to argue their status as a CM, I'll put a link to this thread in the "Reasons for edit" bar.

Also, Force's YMMV page lists entire groups as CM's, I know that that's a big no no, so I'll go ahead and cut that out unless someone objects.

edited 29th Oct '12 7:16:52 PM by CrimsonFlameKnight

Time to leave them all behind

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