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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#41901: Jul 12th 2015 at 12:36:43 PM

No objection there, Lore, I'll throw that in.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#41902: Jul 12th 2015 at 12:36:53 PM

[up][up]Not so sure about the wrestling thing...it would still be TECHNICALLY possible (though I guess we could...wasn't Scar on the never again list?).

edited 12th Jul '15 12:37:00 PM by ACW

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#41903: Jul 12th 2015 at 12:57:18 PM

The issue I have with Professional Wrestling monsters is that I simply cannot imagine anyone ever passing the baseline heinous standard considering the constantly shifting nature of the medium and the fact that NOTHING is ever played seriously. Not to mention, there is there ever present issue of where the person ends and the character begins. Theatre has clear distinctions and can have monsters in story of the play itself. Ultimately, I can never truly imagine anyone on the forum actually upvoting a monster candidate from this genre.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#41904: Jul 12th 2015 at 1:12:47 PM

On the Chaos Kin, it certainly is sentient at least to a degree (it delivers a Breaking Speech to Pit through the mouth of Palutena). The thing is, though, it doesn't seem to have any understandable motive behind this. The most likely one, actually, is that it's feeding on souls to survive. Thus, self-preservation. Even then, we know too little about how it works to give it the warrant of a figurative "monster."

Also, ACW, I'd prefer if you add a "the" before "Great Fusilli" as just "Great Fusilli" reads rather awkwardly.

edited 12th Jul '15 1:16:17 PM by Scraggle

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#41905: Jul 12th 2015 at 1:14:16 PM

[up][up] Eh, I guess that makes sense (I wouldn't say nothing is played seriously though).
[up] Done.


Let's do Wild Hunt dude now:
Franchise-wide
  • Eredin Breacc Glas, King of The Wild Hunt, is the ultimate villain of the Witcher Saga, the Big Bad of the third game, and the Arch-Enemy of Geralt of Rivia. Leader of the Dearg Ruadhri (red riders) cavalry, Eredin has led his armies to the genocide of humans on the Aen Elle elf worlds. Able to cross over into other worlds, Eredin participates in massacres of anyone not sufficiently Aen Elle and takes innocents as slaves, even children, until they are "empty" inside and broken. Eredin murders his king Auberon and attempts to capture Ciri to control her Elder Blood and allow him to invade all the worlds he wishes. Chasing Ciri, the Hunt regularly slaughters all those who might help her. When he encounters Geralt at the end of the third game, Eredin mocks him with how he'll torture Ciri when he no longer needs her. While Eredin wants to escape the coming apocalypse, his sadism, racism, attempted genocide, and cruelty eliminate any sympathy or well intentioned extremism and make Eredin without doubt the most evil monster in the worlds of The Witcher.

edited 12th Jul '15 2:08:42 PM by ACW

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#41906: Jul 12th 2015 at 1:25:10 PM

[up]It makes more sense for the first link to be Bigger Bad as opposed to Big Bad.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#41907: Jul 12th 2015 at 1:30:33 PM

[up]Got it around "ultimate villain". Try it now.

edited 12th Jul '15 1:48:35 PM by ACW

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#41908: Jul 12th 2015 at 2:58:01 PM

I was looking at Transformers Monster, and I saw that Lockdown's entry for Animated was (sorry if this offends the original author of those posts) a little underwritten, and doesn't explain his crimes very well. So, if nobody minds, I'm taking a stab at rewriting it:

  • Lockdown is a ruthless and sadistic Bounty Hunter whose only loyalty is to himself. Unaligned with Autobots or Decepticons, Lockdown is indiscriminate in his prey, taking commissions from whomever is willing to pay him. To make himself more powerful, Lockdown steals upgrades from his targets, torturing them by cutting the weapons from his victims' bodies. Devoid of empathy, Lockdown sees his victims as little more than trophies, taunting them if he chances to encounter them again. Having once been a student of the Autobot Yoketron, Lockdown murdered his former master in order to steal the protoforms under Yoketron's protection and sell them for his own profit. Merciless and consumed by greed, Lockdown is a sociopath who frightens and disgusts Autobots and Decepticons alike.

How's that?

edited 12th Jul '15 2:59:06 PM by DeCarta

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#41909: Jul 12th 2015 at 3:04:54 PM

Ah, excellent. I kinda thought we needed that rewritten.

randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#41910: Jul 12th 2015 at 3:13:11 PM

[up][up][tup], all we need now is Trilogy!Megatron and Overlord.

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#41911: Jul 12th 2015 at 3:13:36 PM

Thanks. If more people like this rewrite, I'd be happy to take a stab at some others that might need tidying up.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#41912: Jul 12th 2015 at 3:24:39 PM

[up]X4: [tup]. I too was thinking that needed expansion.

edited 12th Jul '15 3:24:53 PM by ACW

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#41913: Jul 12th 2015 at 3:33:42 PM

No experience on Overlord, but I'll give Megatron/Galvatron the ol' college try (I haven't been to college, but that's beside the point):

Now, it's been a few years since I watched either Energon or Cybertron, so it may be an imperfect effort. Constructive criticism is welcomed, and if anybody can do a better job, go for it.

randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#41914: Jul 12th 2015 at 4:14:06 PM

@De Carta: Thanks, added them to the sandbox.

edited 12th Jul '15 4:14:27 PM by randomtroper89

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#41915: Jul 12th 2015 at 4:21:39 PM

I give a late [tup] to Evelyn Poole and Angelo. I will also give a a[tup] to Narukami Sakaki.

Yeah its too early to consider MCU Thanos, we won't . We have Jessica Jones starting in a couple of months, maybe Purple Man will count.

Anyway I recently rewatched the obscure cult classic animated film Wizards and the main villain may count. The director argues its a family film, but I would disagree. So I am going to do a effort post on him:

Who is Black Wolf? What has he done?

First we need some context on the setting for any of this to make sense. Wizards takes place millions of years after most humanity is destroyed by a nuclear war. Parts of the planet is still irradiated, but other parts are not. In these other parts, mystical creatures like Elves and Fairies began to appear. Delia, queen of the fairies gave birth to two children, the kind Avatar and the wicked Black Wolf. Avatar spent his time entertaining his mother, while Black Wolf spent his time torturing animals. When their mother died, Black Wolf was very happy, he used her death as excuse to seize power in the kingdom. Avatar fought him and after defeating him, banishing Black Wolf.

Black Wolf moved to the kingdom of Scorch, an irradiated place populated by mutants and took over. Black Wolf made plans to use the mutants to conquer the free lands, but his army was undisciplined and their attacks would usually fall apart. Black Wolf spent centuries researching ways to improve his army's performance and researched the past before the nuclear holocaust. He found war technology like tanks and guns, but that was still not enough for him. Eventually he found the weapon he was looking for, propaganda. He found a projector and old Nazi propaganda films, these films inspired his troops on the battle field, while bringing terror and confusion to his enemies, allowing him to win battles. The good armies are often horribly massacred in these battles and since Black Wolf decided to start a war of conquest, those deaths are on his head. The mutants would be engaging in this war if he was not their leader.

Black Wolf before using his new weapon, he sought to remove any obstacles to his rule, he had his assassins kill anyone in his kingdom who secretly studied magic and assassinated the leaders of the free nations. We see that when his troops conquer a village, they end up murdering the prisoners they captured and blowing up a church.

Black Wolf tries to inspire his mutant troops by saying they are a master race, but when he finds out his son will be a mutant, he orders the baby to killed.

Is he heinious by the standards of the work?

Well he is the main villain and most of the bad stuff that happens in the film is his fault. He is guilty of ordering a few massacres and he has personal acts of cruelty like planning to murder his own son, so I think he passes the baseline standard. His minions are far more sympathetic then he is.

Any Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?

No real Freudian Excuse, he is just a power mad psychopath. Now there could be a suggestion that he is Made of Evil, considering he is evil and hostile looking even as a baby, but I'm not sure I agree with that. His brother Avatar is not pure good, as he grew older he became lazy, perverted and a bit of drunk, if Avatar is not pure good and chooses to be that way, I don't see why Black Wolf cannot choose to be less evil. Also one of Black Wolf's robot assassins chooses to be good in the film, so most creatures in this world have moral agency.

A kinda of weird comedic scene is when Black Wolf's troops have captured a village and are not sure what to do with the prisoners. Two of the (rather incompetent) field commanders to go to a church and ask the priests to take care of the prisoners. The priests engage in a silly version of prayers and antics for 5 hours till the field commanders get bored, order the prisoners to be killed and then blow up the church. If Black Wolf doesn't care about his own son and is willing to kill those who stand is way, I doubt he cared about these prisoners. Either Black Wolf did not give his minions clear instructions on how to deal with prisoners or more likely, did give them instructions to kill them, but the minions were not following them properly. Black Wolf is not in that scene, so I wouldn't say that is a sympathetic moment for him, again his minions are more sympathetic then he is.

Finally at one point, Black Wolf said when he wants to conquer the good lands so the mutants will not have to live in a irradiated wasteland, but Black Wolf was willing to kill his own son for being mutant, so that seems like a self serving lie, there is no real evidence Black Wolf cares about the mutants.

Black Wolf only cares about himself, he was happy when his mother died, he hates his brother and wanted to murder his own son. I would say he was no redeeming qualities.

Verdict?

I think he counts.

edited 12th Jul '15 6:26:44 PM by Overlord

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#41916: Jul 12th 2015 at 4:33:32 PM

That's the second Black Wolf we've had... (though I think it's actually "Blackwulf"). Tentative [tup].

Pwnisher248 Since: Dec, 2011
#41917: Jul 12th 2015 at 5:21:26 PM

@41885 I like your tweaks to the write-up, though I suggest potholing "Dr. Jonathan Crane" to Psycho Psychologist, so that there won't be two links to Mad Scientist in the same sentence.

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#41918: Jul 12th 2015 at 5:54:10 PM

[tup] To the Black Wolf.

I think I have a candidate, but I am not entirely sure. Even if they do count, I'm not sure if they would go on fanworks or music.

The candidate is the version of the killer displayed in The Living Tombstone's Five Nights At Freddys music videos. I know the killer from the actual games does not count, at least not now (though the final game or film adaptation may change that), but if Charles Cooper from You Seem Acquainted With Those Doors is any indication, fan works can have their own versions of characters qualify even if the characters in the original work did not qualify.

The Living Tombstone made three FNAF music videos. The first video (simply titled Five Nights At Freddy's), has the animatronics singing about how lonely they are since they have been stuck in their current forms since 1987. The animatronics reveal (in song) that the reason why they kill people (at least in the version) is because they want to make the night guards like them so that they can have more friends (the song/ music video portrays them as Affably Evil, with them flat out begging the night guard to let them kill him).

The second music video (titled "It's been so long") has a mother singing about how she lost her son to the killer. We see the child go into the pizzeria. Eventually, an animatronic takes the child and four other children into a room. The killer than comes out of the animatronic he had used to disguise himself, and kills all five children.

The final music video (titled "I hope you die in a fire") shows the killer destroying the animatronics while he sings to himself about how much he hates them. The lyrics indicate that in this video, the killer is well aware that the animatronics are possessed by the children he killed, and he simply does not care that he got them Barred from the Afterlife.

Any mitigating factors?

Unlike in the actual games, in these music videos, we actually see the children being killed. If you count the fact that the third song is sung from the killer's perspective, we also hear him speak. While the games left many things up to interpretation, here, the animatronics are clearly presented in a more positive light while the killer is shown to be filled with hate. I am not sure if we have had an example like this before, and I was not really sure about even taking it to this thread at first. I decided to check with you guys just to be sure since I have seen examples that I never expected to get approved come through and be determined to qualify. I will just let you guys decide.

jjj
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#41919: Jul 12th 2015 at 6:41:37 PM

It still sounds like his motivations are unknown.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#41920: Jul 12th 2015 at 6:56:43 PM

[tup] to Blackwolf.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
sanfranman91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
BigglesTh9 Since: Jul, 2011
#41922: Jul 12th 2015 at 7:23:48 PM

If we end up giving Jojo its own page, how's this for a quote?

->"Your upbringing made you a villain, you say? It didn't!! You've been evil since your birth!" —>—Robert E. O. Speedwagon to Dio Brando

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#41923: Jul 12th 2015 at 8:42:54 PM

Yeah, I still don't think there is enough info about the killer from that music video to really determine what his motives are, so he doesn't count.

But hey a new Five Nights at Freddy's game is coming out this Halloween, maybe we will finally learn more about the murderer.

Also ACW, with the Spider-Man tree, you might want to give Vulture 2099 a sub bullet, because he is not in the same continuity as the 616 villains.

Regarding some the YMMV examples in the Sandbox, did we ever decide whether Grune from Thundercats 2011 counted. Some seemed to think he counted, while others seemed to think he was overshadowed by Mumm-Ra (who has not been discussed yet).

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#41924: Jul 12th 2015 at 9:10:17 PM

[tup] Blackwolf. (Yes, it's just one word.)

edited 12th Jul '15 9:18:00 PM by ANewMan

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love

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