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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#41776: Jul 9th 2015 at 10:58:02 AM

Unsure about Wade. With a combination of canon heinousness and Video Game Cruelty Potential, it strikes me that a villain will have to do a lot to be a CM, like how Grnad Theft Auto has Donald Love, or Saints Row which had such a dark morality, it took Satan to have a CM.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#41777: Jul 9th 2015 at 10:58:59 AM

Not that this matters by now, but I'm just not seeing the sort of insanity that would absolve Arkham Scarecrow of a CM status. Malice driven by insanity isn't the same as insanity fueled by malice. Scarecrow, like Joker, seems to be the latter. It'd be one thing if his insanity showed him a person who's so far gone he's mentally incapable of understanding that his ways are wrong and that there are other paths in life he could choose to take besides that (like Professor Pyg's sort of insanity), but Crane seems fully aware that his way isn't objectively right, and of the paths that others take and he likely should take, yet he chooses to do terrible things anyway. I mean, even Joker (not that it absolves him) sees life and the world through the lenses of it being one big, demented, horrible, twisted, sick joke. Crane is just a sadistic sociopath who wants to make others feel smaller and afraid out of selfish reasoning.

As for "the Arkham staff's views on him don't matter" - they actually kind of do. A criteria for this trope specifically states evoking fear, revulsion and hatred from the other characters in the story. If other characters, even minor ones, have to point out that they view a villain as being worse than the typical crazy super-criminal in some way, there's a high chance that the narrative is positioning that villain as a Complete Monster.

And lastly, I really don't believe in that "The Joker is the exception to the rule" claim since it comes off as almost a Double Standard. Why should Joker, a deranged madman whose mind clearly does not function the same way as regular people, be called ultimate evil and yet characters who suffer the same sort of madness be absolved of such claims? In fact, is it meaning to suggest that he's just the exception for Batman canons or for the CM trope as a whole? If so, then where would that leave examples like Kefka? So again I say if the malice fuels the madness rather than the other way around, the insane villain is a likely candidate for the trope.

edited 9th Jul '15 11:35:26 AM by ANewMan

Pwnisher248 Since: Dec, 2011
#41778: Jul 9th 2015 at 11:36:41 AM

Unfortunately, I've been unable to play the game so far, but from what I've seen of him and from the discussions here, I'll give a [tup] to Arkham Scarecrow.

Hawaii_Knut The Dark Lord of Hawaiian Shirts from Norway Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: On the prowl
The Dark Lord of Hawaiian Shirts
#41779: Jul 9th 2015 at 11:40:51 AM

[up][up][up][up][up]

It would seem like that. Even more evil than Disney Villains at their worst.

Srg. Dornan: Troper, what are you doing here?! Get back to your post!!!
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#41780: Jul 9th 2015 at 12:07:58 PM

[tup] to Samedi, Wade, and Mana

As for Arkham Scarecrow's "mental issues", this is the way I see it:

"I enjoy hurting people because I have mental problems." - Professor Pyg; Mad Hatter

"I have mental problems because I enjoy hurting people." -The Joker; The Scarecrow

edited 9th Jul '15 12:16:29 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#41781: Jul 9th 2015 at 12:12:16 PM

So I posted Mana Ouma yesterday and so far I only have two [tup] does anyone else want to vote?

edited 9th Jul '15 12:20:07 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#41783: Jul 9th 2015 at 12:32:10 PM

[up][up][tup] ONLY if she became evil and infected by choice.
BTW, I think this weekend I may try to clean up and correctly indent the Spider Man tree.

theTamer (Don’t ask)
#41784: Jul 9th 2015 at 12:40:39 PM

I wonder if we can take Sakazuki (One Piece) off of the CM list because it seems he has mellowed out a little (Or at the least won't take shit from the Gorosei) according to the most recent chapter. Or will it be a few more chapters?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#41785: Jul 9th 2015 at 12:54:07 PM

Since someone from Guilty Crown was brought up, I feel it's time to bring up another person from that show that I was kicking around in my head for a while. Shuichiro Keido.

Who is Shuichiro Keido?

Shuichiro Keido is the Big Bad of Guilty Crown, head of the GHQ Anti Bodies and the archnemesis of Funeral Parlor. As a graduate student, Shuichiro's brilliance isolated him from the rest of his peers whom he ultimately came to see as mere annoyances that obstructed his intellectual growth. Upon meeting Kurosu Ouma, the father of the protagonist Shu Ouma and other monster candidate Mana Ouma, he finally met a person whom he could call his equal and the two quickly became friends.

What has he done?

Over the years, Keido grew increasingly embittered towards Kurosu as he witnessed his colleague's success and intellect steadily eclipse his own. Upon learning that Kurosu's offspring would become the progenitors of a new race in the aftermath of the Fourth Apocalypse, he experimented on countless orphan boys (including Gai, Shu's childhood friend and future leader of Funeral Parlor) to create an "Adam" that would deny Kurosu the privilege of shaping the next generation of humanity in his own image. After learning that Kurosu's research on the Apocalypse virus surpasses his own, he murders his friend in a jealous rage. From that moment forward, Keido dedicates his entire being to ending the world that Kurosu worked so desperately to save.

As the leader of the GHQ Anti-Bodies forces, Shuichiro directly oversees a campaign of oppression and mass murder against the Japanese population as well as all operations against Funeral Parlor, the rebel organization comprising the series' protagonists. Additionally, following the revelation that he is secretly in Da'ath's employ, he later admits that the only reason he helps the organization initiate a worldwide outbreak is to consummate a final act of vengeance against his longtime rival, Kurosu Ouma.

Heinous by the standards of the story?

By acting as Da'ath's foremost agent in bringing about the Fourth Apocalypse, he ultimately does more than anyone to set in motion the catastrophic events of the series' present timeline. The only antagonist in Guilty Crown that I can say matches him is Mana herself.

Verdict?

I give him a [tup]

edited 9th Jul '15 8:29:48 PM by VeryMelon

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Hawaii_Knut The Dark Lord of Hawaiian Shirts from Norway Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: On the prowl
The Dark Lord of Hawaiian Shirts
#41789: Jul 9th 2015 at 1:59:17 PM

Where's Baron Samedi's original post?

Srg. Dornan: Troper, what are you doing here?! Get back to your post!!!
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#41790: Jul 9th 2015 at 2:04:23 PM

Actually Mana did intentionally infect herself with the Apocalypse virus by cutting her hand on the meteor

edited 9th Jul '15 3:07:24 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#41791: Jul 9th 2015 at 2:19:58 PM

We should probably holding pattern Sakazuki for now, but if he keeps acting the way he did this chapter he'll probably have to be removed, I think. In particular, he seems to express disgust at how the Nobles can get away with anything.

edited 9th Jul '15 2:20:06 PM by HamburgerTime

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#41792: Jul 9th 2015 at 2:20:07 PM

Well I finally started to stop procrastinating and get to a entry on Gala, so here it is! A day after my birthday no less.

Unlike the other fal'Cie from the Fabula Nova Chrysalis series, Gala is significantly less well intentioned. He starts the game off by posessing Cid and nuking a fair chunk of Cid's own nation, which we see on screen. Then he starts a genocidal war throughout the world with the hopes of massacring everyone. When the heroes go to stop him, he decides to nuke their home of Class Zero and kill many children and young teenagers who were left behind and were innocent bystanders. Like the other fal'Cie, he experiments on humans and painfully and sadistically turns them into l'Cie to fight for him. Unlike the l'Cie of the past, these l'Cie have no free will and should they fail, they ultimately die. When that plan was thwarted, he tries to use Cid to destroy the entire universe, causing Cid to kill himself. Gala's ultimate plan? To open Etro's Gate and end existence as he feels that existence is meaningless and imperfect. Unlike the other fal'Cie, however, Gala plots to eradicate Etro herself and take over the tattered remains of existence so he could be the true God. He shows no regret for his crimes and has no excuse, other than the fact he wants to be the supreme ruler of the gods.

How does it look? Feel free to add it to the FF Monster and YMMV pages whenever. He got 7 keep votes and zero opposed.

edited 9th Jul '15 3:33:51 PM by Klavice

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#41793: Jul 9th 2015 at 2:27:34 PM

@ Morgenthaler

In my opinion, NOTHING is worse than killing your own mother. But that is just my biased opinion.

Also, a writeup on Eredin anyone?

edited 9th Jul '15 2:28:02 PM by emperors

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#41794: Jul 9th 2015 at 2:29:21 PM

You can bring those seven [tup] to eight because I'm going to give he my [tup]

edited 9th Jul '15 4:27:06 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#41795: Jul 9th 2015 at 2:57:05 PM

With Sakazuki, the question is whether he's disgusted that the Nobles can get away with alot of junk, or if he's disgusted because they can get away with alot of junk, while not being under the Navy's, and, by extension Akainu's, thumb.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#41796: Jul 9th 2015 at 3:08:07 PM

He also commented it'd make it difficult for him to keep the admiral position with that stuff. He says if things like this happen, it causes him to lose face.

I'll wait'll Monday when I get the Viz TL

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#41797: Jul 9th 2015 at 3:09:12 PM

So far I have four [tup] and zero [tdown] for Mana Ouma is there any others who would like to vote?

edited 9th Jul '15 3:09:52 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#41798: Jul 9th 2015 at 3:18:34 PM

Speaking of One Piece, was a decision ever reached on Doflamingo?

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#41799: Jul 9th 2015 at 3:40:22 PM

@G-Editor: Gala is a male though, but thank you. I'm really looking forward to what Final Fantasy XV does with the fal'Cie since it's a FNC game. Will it make them sympathetic WIE like FFXIII, or will it make them unsympathetic Omnicidal Maniac monsters like Type-0?

And not many people are going to be playing Type-0 as it has quite a few scrappy mechanics. For one, Phoenix Downs are extremely scarce (like probably as rare as Final Fantasy III DS), there's no Life spell like FFXIII and its sequels, as well as the fact they throw overleveled monsters at you which will pursue you to the ends of the world, instead of ignoring you like XII and XIII. So I based Gala's effort post and write up from what I found on the FF wiki coupled with the playthrough I'm watching.

Also I believe the vote was in favour of cutting Doflamingo, but don't quote me on that.

edited 9th Jul '15 3:41:53 PM by Klavice

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#41800: Jul 9th 2015 at 3:53:49 PM

The vote tally on Doffy was approx:

10-Keep

4-Cut

4 or 5-Unsure

So while it seems he counts, I believe it was decided to wait a few more chapters to see if some mitigating factor arose.

I'll give a hesitant [tup] to Vrak

edited 9th Jul '15 4:30:00 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!

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