During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I'm not very sure but I would give a tentative
to grizzly Injun Joe. While not totally different from his book counterpart this version has no redeeming traits or Freudian Excuse and the fact that his victims are innocent people makes it look eviler.
edited 27th Jun '15 2:05:27 PM by ST89
Well, if we compare their actions side-by-side:
Injun Joe: Murders two criminals who tried to betray him, frames a fellow criminal so he won't get arrested, and attempts to murder three children to eliminate witnesses and for revenge.
Injurin' Joe: Murders a Deputy who tried to rightly confiscate gold from him, frames a mentally slow innocent seemingly for kicks, regularly robs a church and its patrons, and attempts to murder three children for revenge and sadism.
Something else to keep in mind is the heinous bar. The original Tom Sawyer wasn't a grimdark tale or anything, but it wasn't exactly optimistic and cheery. This adaptation of the tale is a fun, colorful, joyous musical for kids, that turns into a horror movie each time Joe shows up. He is a vicious Knight of Cerebus who darkens the film every time he is on screen.
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!I remember Injurin' Joe from an online review of that movie, and the thing I most recall about him is his murder of the deputy was almost over-the-top in it's brutality. He literally throws the guy high up into the air (while it's thundering, no less) and he falls screaming towards a stone that kills him on landing, pretty much breaking his body. It's sort of Narmy and hard to take seriously, but at the same time, it's a pretty cruel murder to include in an animated kids' film. So he gets a
from me too.
I caught up on One Piece today and I'm switching my vote to an "unsure" for Doffy. He definitely does say he'll just replace everything he destroyed, presumably including his men, implying he does just see them as possessions. However, I still think you could make the case that he loved his mother, and that when you think about it a good deal of this mess is arguably Trebol's fault as well.
Inju R In' Joe. That's the politically correct name he goes by in that film anyway.
On Doffy having loved his mother - should "loved" in the past tense be the keyword there? Does he show any signs of still harboring those loving feelings in the present day?
I don't think you can make a case he loved his mom. If he ever did (And Rosinante seems to indicate he definitely didn't), he doesn't anymore. He views family as nothing but tools and stated that he was done with blood kin.
Trebol, Pika, Diamante and Vergo definitely...exacerbated what was already there with Doffy, but he still went down the road himself. and it's indicated he manipulated Trebol just as badly.
Does he love mom in present day? Definitely not.
edited 27th Jun '15 4:57:30 PM by Lightysnake
Re Injurin Joe: Gonna vote no because he sounds fairly standard for a villain.
Re Indomitus Rex: Doubtful I need to say it at this point but I vote no. It's a clever girl but it's still an animal and doesn't have the moral capacity to judge right from wrong.
Re Maegor: Unfortunately I'm going to vote no. He's definitely heinous enough but I'm pretty skeptical about including a character from an in-universe history book because we never witness the character in person, merely hear what he did from historical accounts. Plus, isn't the book unclear on certain matters such as his death and there's a definite bias because the historian writing the book is a Baratheon supporter who dedicates to Tommen or Joffrey?
@ACW: Take out cult-like from the Concerned Citizen's entry, it doesn't apply.
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FWIW, Witcher Wiki
actually calls it "the cult of the Eternal Fire".
As far as Maegor's death goes, he's found at the conclusion of the war in his throne room, his wrists cut open. It's unsure if he's been murdered or killed himself.
It's basically a sourcebook of westerosi history with a few 'ambiguities' here and there, but Maegor isn't really subject to that. If Martin writes a story that shows Maegor as a puppy-owning, fun loving chap, then we can revisit it, but this is meant to be a definitive look into Westeros.
Does he love mom in present day? Definitely not.
Then it's a case akin to Jafar from Once Upon A Time In Wonderland - loved his mom when he was a child, and that was the last person he ever loved. As an adult, he only loves himself and is filled with nothing but indifference or contempt for others around him.
And his view on family sounds literally like TV Walder Frey's view on wives. "I'll find another one."
edited 27th Jun '15 6:22:58 PM by ANewMan
Wow, if Doffy makes it onto the list, every villain since the Time Skip would seem to be increasing in evil. I can only imagine how bad Kaido will be...
This is a guy that even Doffy is afraid of, who slaughtered Moria's entire original crew.
Hugging a Vanillite will give you frostbite.
Why not? He does everything the version you proposed did (barring one murder of a criminal), but his victims were all innocent. He actually does more than any other version of the character I know of. I agree with others that it is a close call, but I'd say he's just bad enough to warrant a
Does anyone else have any votes to give?
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!

Yes, but action wise, this Injun Joe sounds about the same.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."