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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#41276: Jun 27th 2015 at 9:37:18 AM

The I-Rex is certainly more evil than any of the other Jurassic Park dinosaur antagonists we had til this point (I don't recall the Raptors, T-Rex, or Spinesaurus killing for sport just because they found they enjoyed killing) but it has a valid excuse for having turned out that way and in terms of actions, it really does nothing that the dinosaurs of previous films didn't do. An easy [tdown].

Hoskins is an even easier [tdown] since he did nothing heinous at any point in the film. He was just your standard asshole who was so gung-ho about his military plans that he refused to follow common sense. Honestly, Dr. Wu is the one I'm most wary of seeing as we know nothing about his agenda and his motives seem like the selfish "play God" motives of John Hammond in the original book. But his turn will come if or when there's a sequel.

Alright, it seems Barkis has to go. And if I give Doffy one last [tup], can a writeup be made for him?

edited 27th Jun '15 9:40:06 AM by ANewMan

Sterok Since: Apr, 2012
#41277: Jun 27th 2015 at 9:46:14 AM

There was actual consideration on the Jurassic World villains? Really? [tdown] to all, whether for just being an ass without doing anything (Hoskins) or for having the completely legitimate excuse that she's (essentially) a dinosaur (Indominus) who does what dinos do best.

edited 27th Jun '15 9:50:42 AM by Sterok

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#41278: Jun 27th 2015 at 9:46:48 AM

The others will be done later today, but here's Cioccolata:

edited 27th Jun '15 9:52:00 AM by ACW

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#41279: Jun 27th 2015 at 9:51:26 AM

I think Indominus is actually a good example for why cruelty, again, is in no way evidence of moral agency. Its whole genetic make-up and upbringing was designed to make it the ultimate sadistic killing machine. Surprise, it becomes the ultimate sadistic killing machine. Like the vast number of disqualified Made of Evil villains, it never had any choice to not be what it is. The fact that it can plan and reason and even enjoys killing is completely irrelevant, as there are quite a few species capable of that besides humans.

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#41280: Jun 27th 2015 at 10:18:12 AM

Yeah, [tdown] to Idominous Rex. Not only does it have a FE that sticks, but high inteligance aside, moral agency is out the window due to it being Made of Evil as far as genetics and nature goes. Literal monster ? Yes ? Complete Monster ? No.

Also [tdown] to Hoskins. He's a scumbag yes, but it's been said - just another Carter Burke. Now if the I-Rex's killing spree was part of his plan, he'd probably count. He's a standard sci-fi human antagonist

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Nithael (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#41281: Jun 27th 2015 at 10:30:13 AM

Of course [tdown] for the I.Rex. Nothing it does in the movie is really out of the ordinary for a wild animal (cats and dolphins kill for fun/sport, for example), especially since it's an abused animal.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#41282: Jun 27th 2015 at 10:51:57 AM

I can't believe the I-Rex is seriously under discussion. Not to any example from Jurassic World

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#41283: Jun 27th 2015 at 11:01:57 AM

People seemed really insistent on bringing it up.

ST89 Since: Feb, 2015
#41284: Jun 27th 2015 at 11:22:48 AM

What exactly makes a literal monster a CM like in the case of Rawhead and some Godzilla villains ? His humanistic personality and/or him being sentient perhaps ?

ZetaRidge (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#41285: Jun 27th 2015 at 11:26:28 AM

Has anyone considered Oliver Saxon from Dexter?

edited 27th Jun '15 11:28:04 AM by ZetaRidge

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#41286: Jun 27th 2015 at 11:31:15 AM

That guy did come up during the Dexter discussions. If I recall the conclusion was that he would qualify in a series with a lower heinous standard, but he faced too much competition from 8 seasons worth of killers.

edited 27th Jun '15 11:31:35 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
ZetaRidge (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#41288: Jun 27th 2015 at 11:51:40 AM

A large part of Rawhead rex is told from Rawhead's POV. We more than understand how sentient he is and how he enjoys what he does. The Godzilla villains...it was long established Kaiju are fully sentient beings

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#41289: Jun 27th 2015 at 12:00:51 PM

So, I've followed this cleanup for a while now, and have only just recently became an official troper, and I was wondering, what if someone has a possible candidate, but there isn't a page for the actual work the candidate is from?

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#41290: Jun 27th 2015 at 12:12:14 PM

Depends. If the work has no page because it was cut by our site administration or the P5, it's best not to bring it up after you're informed of said cut.

Otherwise, it's fine. We take plenty of examples from works that don't have a trope page on the site, like Creepypastas.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#41291: Jun 27th 2015 at 12:13:06 PM

If it's not a pornographic work, then it's fine. We have plenty examples that don't have work pages.

Also Exister did a good writeup for the Concerned Citizen here...we putting that up or no? and Grimm's Jack the Ripper? And what's the status on Hobie/Allen and Mike Logan?

ACW, are you sure you've recorded all the writeups? There's a few that haven't been added that were written up.

Also, here's an effortpost on Maegor I

Who Is He?

Maegor, First of his Name, son of the Dragon, king of the Andals and the First Men....later known in history as Maegor the Cruel.Maegor was the younger son of the great king Aegon the Conqueror, by Aegon's elder sister Visenya. Aegon had two sisters and duty dictated he marry the elder, Visenya, but he married both due to his love for Rhaenys the younger.

After Aegon's death, Maegor's elder brother, the weak andgentle Aenys became the king. Maegor proved his mettle when a rebellion rose in the Vale and the lord's younger brother usurped him. Maegor crushed it personally and hanged the rebels, prompting Aenys to name him his chief advisor, the Hand.

After some years, Aenys died. Maegor seized the chance to take the throne, not caring that Aenys had children himself.

What Did He Do?

Well, Grandmaester Gawan sensibly protested the law stated that the crown should go to Maegor's nephew. Maegor promptly decapitated him and everyone present kinda elected not to pursue the issue.

Now, the Faith of the Seven was at odds with the Targaryens and in open rebellion Maegor challenged them to a Trial by Seven, seven against seven...only Maegor survived, but took an injury that knocked him to a coma. First thing he did upon awakening days later was to take his dragon, fly to the Sept of Remembrance and incinerate it and every person within. Survivors and those trying to escaped were picked off by archers Maegor had set up.

Maegor continued to attack the Faith, committing a massacre at Stonebridge that is said to have made the waters run red for 20 leagues. Maegor continued brutal means against the Faith, where 'innocent bystander' and 'rebel' weren't really mutually exclusive terms

Prince Aegon, Aenys's eldest son also decided that maybe he wasn't the big fan of Uncle Maegor stealing his crown. Maegor settled that issue by personally killing him on dragon back.

Maegor was also known for having the Red Keep a massive seat of the king, constructed. Upon completion, he had all the builders and architects killed to keep the secrets for himself.

I should also note Maegor was polygamous and took 6 wives. His first wife proved unable to bear him an heir and died of 'an illness.' His second wife gave birth to a stillborn monstrosity. Maegor killed her, her entire family and made a ton of knights all fight to the death to see who got their lands. Reasonable. Oh, and Maegor also executed all the septas (nuns), widwives, the grand maester

His favorite, Tyanna of the Tower, was just as nasty as Maegor. When Aenys's second son was captured, Maegor gave the poor guy to Tyanna who tortured him for nine days till he died and strung the corpse up to lure out his brother's widow, Queen Alysse. She didn't take the bait. Tyanna eventually confessed she might kinda have poisoned Alys out of jealousy, so Maegor cut her heart out and threw it to the dogs.

He then forcibly married three other women. One was killed for not giving him an heir...one was Maegor's own NIECE and the wife of his dead nephew, captured with him. Only she and the other of these survived Maegor's reign.

Oh, and I should note Maegor killed a bunch of peasants (2000 of them) and passed their skulls off as members of the Faith Militant. Cause that's how Maegor rolls.

Heinous Standard, etc

No Freudian Excuse. The guy grew up totally normally and his dad was a swell guy and father. Maegor's just a power hungry psychotic dick.

No redeeming qualities, either. The only people Maegor was close to, he turned on, like Tyanna. His mother is the exception but he's never described as loving her. Visenya died into his reign, but she is described as his adviser and the force beyond his wiser decisions.

So, pass. The heinous standard is the hard part, but Maegor causes a ridiculous amount of damage moreso than any other Targaryen King. An enormous body count, by very cruel means and massacre after massacre. Only the mad King Aerys stacks up with that.

Worlds of Ice and Fire is written in the style of a history, but if we allow anyone from there, we should allow Maegor the Cruel. All of what they present on the nutjob is pretty universally agreed upon, so I believe we ought treat this like a sourcebook except where it notes serious ambiguity.

edited 27th Jun '15 12:54:43 PM by Lightysnake

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#41292: Jun 27th 2015 at 12:33:25 PM

Lighty: Mike Logan got three votes for him so far, however I suggested putting him on hold because he does help his wounded friend in the amazon, so I wanted to be sure if it was a genuine Pet the Dog moment or Pragmatic Villainy. It's annoying I know, but until I re-watch the movie or if someone else who knows the movie has anything to say, he's on hold.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#41293: Jun 27th 2015 at 12:54:57 PM

[up][up]George Harvey, Rawhead, Grimm!Jack The Ripper, Blaine, Erzsebet, and Concerned Citizen should be done shortly. Diavolo'll be done next week. Cioccolata's a few posts back. Hobie/Allen I think only you and the proposer voted yes, I myself am not sure if he is bad enough compared to the other Jack Reacher entries we have already. Anyone I'm missing?


[tup] Maegor, especially if the 2000-peasant massacre is on-page. I need to ask about this sentence from Aerys's entry:
"The people of Westeros had been living under the Targaryen dynasty for almost 300 years, even though it meant putting up with monarchs like Maegor the Cruel and Aegon the Unworthy, yet all it took was 20 years of Aerys' rule to cause five of the seven kingdoms to rise up against the Iron Throne in open revolt. He was really just that bad."
That should probably go (and how bad is Aegon anyway?).

edited 27th Jun '15 1:00:15 PM by ACW

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#41294: Jun 27th 2015 at 1:05:22 PM

Aegon was ridiculously corrupt and awful, but he didn't quite have the panache for horrible slaughter Maegor did. He did get a lot of damage done through incompetence.

Anyways, the reason Maegor didn't make everyone throw off Targaryen rule was because prince Jaeharys, Aenys's third son, existed as a man to rally behind and was such a great king he led the realm through his fifty year golden age reign. The reason Aerys was crushed was because four Lord Paramounts rose up against him, a fifth sat on the sidelines and the Targaryen family only consisted of Aerys himself and Rhaegar there.

edited 27th Jun '15 1:07:55 PM by Lightysnake

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#41295: Jun 27th 2015 at 1:08:10 PM

Well, I have a possible (emphasis on the possible part) candidate from a film without a page. This is my first attempt at an effortpost so bear with me.

Who is he?

Injurin' Joe is the main antagonist of the 2000 animated musical adaptation of the classic The Adventures Of Tom Sawyer, but with a twist. The characters are anthropomorphized versions of their novel counterparts. Tom is a cat, Huckleberry's a fox, and Joe himself is a Grizzly bear.

What does he do?

The film opens with Joe smashing his way into a church during its service and stealing the poorbox, something he does regularly. The Sheriff realizes this, but is too scared of Joe, and lazy, to do anything about it, much to his Deputy's annoyance.

One rainy night, Joe forces the innocent, and dimwitted, Mutt Potter to dig for treasure in the middle of a graveyard, without even telling Potter what he was digging for. Potter eventually finds the treasure, but his whining about how hard the digging was attracts Deputy Bean to the scene. Bean announces the gold "belongs to the county," before being seized by Joe. Bean swipes at him with Potter's shovel, accidentally knocking out Mutt in the process. Joe flings Bean into a nearby tombstone, killing him on impact. He then leaves the unconscious Potter at the scene, framing him for the murder.

Joe realizes Tom and Huck have been watching him the whole time, and captures their pet frog, Rebel, taunting them about how they "forgot somebody." He later uses the frog to lead him to the boys, at which point he chases and attempts to kill them.

At Mutt Potter's execution, Joe watches from the woods with a sadistic smile as Potter prepares to be hanged, but Tom and Huck reveal it was Joe who killed the Deputy. Joe attacks and tries to kill the boys (again), before being swept away by a river.

Tom and Becky sneak away from a celebration of Mutt's innocence, and end up lost in a cave. They locate treasure in the heart of cave, but are ambushed by an alive, and very angry, Joe. He pursues Tom and Becky through the caves, eventually cornering them on a ledge as the adults, who realized the children were missing and came looking for them, beg him to let them go. Smiling, he prepares to kill Tom and Becky, however a surprise attack by Huckleberry leads to the bats in the cave being startled, attacking Joe, and causing him to fall to his death, ending his reign of terror over the town.

Freudian Excuse?

No excuse here. The dude's just a sadistic and greedy jerk whose every action is out of either greed, or cruelty.

Is he considerably heinous?

This is a little trickier, but I believe he is. Something to consider is his framing of Mutt Potter. In the original story, he framed Potter, who was a criminal as well, because he didn't want any trouble with the law. This version however, is already a known criminal, everyone is just too scared to stop him. So, he really had no good reason to frame Potter, who in this version is mentally slow and innocent, since if the police were going to do anything, they would have already done it. He seems to do it just for kicks in this adaptation.

Final Verdict?

With one murder, a framing of an innocent for no particular reason that would have led to his death, regular robbery and theft, and the attempted murder of three children on multiple occasions, I'd say he's barely a [tup], but if not, it's cool. This is my first recommendation/ effortpost so pardon me if it's not-up-to-par.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#41296: Jun 27th 2015 at 1:14:26 PM

  • The Lovely Bones: While George Harvey has a Freudian Excuse and shows some remorse for his crimes in the book, the film version of him has no such redeeming qualities. Harvey is a serial child killer who murders Susie Salmon. As a ghost, Susie discovers that he killed five other little girls and an adult woman. Harvey later tries to kill Susie's sister Lindsey after she obtains evidence proving his guilt. His final act is to try and coax a young woman into his car, presumably intending to kill her.
  • Rawhead Rex: The titular character from this Clive Barker short story is a monster from the days before Christianity, released from the earth in a small English village. Rawhead promptly dispatches the man who dug him out and sets about trying to regain his kingdom. The first thing he does is to murder a farmer, eat the man's little daughter alive and also kills the man's pregnant wife before attacking a police car, castrating the survivor of the crash and then burning him alive. Rawhead corrupts the local verger and hideously mutilates the reverend out of contempt for his "weak" religion. At the story's climax, Rawhead attempts to burn down all of Zeal in his fury. Unlike many literal monsters, Rawhead is a sentient being that amounts to a brutish bully who loves carnage, pain and especially eating children.
  • The brutal Serial Killer Jack the Ripper himself appears in the two episodes before the season 4 finale. Infamous for the murder and mutilation of at least five women in Whitechapel, Jack actually started his reign of terror almost a hundred years earlier. In France in 1789, he murdered several Wesen women until a local Grimm killed him. A spiritual being in nature, Jack has been possessing innocent people for centuries and using them to carry out his crimes (it’s heavily implied that all the cases of Jack the Ripper copycats were him) until they die, then he simply stays dormant until he can find a new host. In the modern day he turns up in Portland, latching onto the resurrected Sean Renard. Throughout the season he tortures Renard through hallucinations, forcing him to relieve the event of his shooting, and making his wounds bleed over and over again, almost driving him mad. Eventually he takes over Renard and uses him to carry on his murder spree, murdering a Wesen prostitute in his signature manner. He also murders her friend when she helps the police, and then murders Henrietta for trying to help Sean. Jack later kidnaps Wu and takes him along just so he can watch helplessly as Jack kills his next victim, and likely intends to kill Wu afterwards. When the group carry out their plan to trick Jack into thinking Renard is dying so he’ll leave him, Jack takes over a final time and tries to strangle Rosalee. Completely Ax-Crazy, motivated purely by his own sadistic entertainment and possessing an enormously high body count, Jack stands out as one of the worst enemies Nick ever faced.
  • iZombie: Season 1's Big Bad, Blaine DeBeers, was a two-bit drug dealer while alive. As a zombie, he builds his own business empire by zombifying prominent citizens in the city and then charging them massive amounts of money for Blaine to supply them with brains. Blaine obtains these brains by murder, namely massive amounts of teenage runaways. He proceeds to harvest their brains and has their bodies sold in a restaurant as meat. When two of his henchmen try to branch out and start their own business, Blaine murders them, and later murders his occasional lover who informed him of their plans solely because she gave the police a possible lead on him. Not even Lowell, who Blaine seems to like, is exempt from his ruthlessness; when Lowell tries to kill Blaine for what Blaine has done, Blaine murders him without even blinking. Ruthless, cruel and utterly immoral, Blaine flat out mocks the idea he has an excuse for his actions, stating his reasons as "Daddy issues. Megalomania. Greed."
  • Hellboy Animated: Blood and Iron: Erzsebet Ondrushko is an evil countess based on the infamous Elizabeth Bathory. Consumed by her vanity and wishing to stay young and beautiful forever, Ondrushko sold her soul to Hecate, the Greek Goddess of Witches. In exchange for her soul, Hecate transforms Ondrushko into a vampire and gave her the power to rejuvenate her body if she bathes in the blood of young women. Ondrushko is said to have murdered over a thousand people in her quest to remain young. Through a series of flashbacks, we see Ondrushko take over a dress shop (by murdering the shop owner and her infant child) to lure in and kidnap a young girl named Anna. Anna's fiance gathers a rescue party, including a young Professor Broom, to rescue her. They go to Ondrushko's castle, which is filled with torture devices and the bodies of young women and find Anna drained of blood, and so they kill her to prevent her from becoming a vampire as well. Ondrushko kills most of the rescue party, but Bloom manages to kill her. Though her body died, her evil spirit remained. Sixty years later, the BPRD is sent to investigate a supposed haunted mansion, which is in fact haunted by the souls of Ondrushko's many victims. Ondrushko's minions resurrect her and she bathes in the blood in the mansion's owner to rejuvenate herself.
  • The Concerned Citizen, aka Hubert Rejk, from the "Carnal Sins" sidequest, is a fundamentalist Serial Killer dedicated to the cult-like Order of the Eternal Fire and shares their belief that Novigrad is a fallen city. Targeting people he believes have blasphemed against his religion, the Concerned Citizen tortures his victims by removing their eyeballs and placing burning coals within their empty sockets, forcing them to drink formaldehyde, and cutting out their hearts. He believes these horrific murders will act as a form of shock treatment, awakening the city to its decline and causing its populace to repent. He first comes to Geralt's attention after brutally assaulting and nearly murdering his friend, the bard Priscilla. Other victims include a lecherous dwarf, a lecturer on theology who criticized the Church, an old woman who had a crisis of faith after witnessing the church burn people alive, beggars, street walkers, and orphan children. When Geralt gets too close to the truth, the Concerned Citizen frames another for his crimes, and should Geralt fall for the ruse, the killer leaves behind a final body and a mocking note detailing how he's going to move on to a smaller village and continue his work. Should Geralt uncover his true identity, the Concerned Citizen reveals himself to be a Higher Vampire, meaning that he is such a zealot that he willingly supports a religion that wants to completely wipe out him and all his fellow non-humans.

edited 29th Jun '15 3:26:49 AM by ACW

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#41297: Jun 27th 2015 at 1:25:29 PM

[tup] to Maegor

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#41298: Jun 27th 2015 at 1:30:20 PM

[tup] Maegor.

[tdown] to Injun Joe. He sounds little to no different then the last Injun Joe we discussed.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#41299: Jun 27th 2015 at 1:32:03 PM

I think the difference may be Joe's victims here aren't criminals who double crossed him.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#41300: Jun 27th 2015 at 1:34:47 PM

[up] Exactly my point

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!

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