During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
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I thought we were supposed to wait a week before discussing Go T. I haven't seen last night's finale yet, but luckily for you, I didn't read your summary.
It says a lot about just how dark Game of Thrones has gotten when being a cruel and sadistic pedophile isn't heinous enough to count as this trope. The show has become to Live Action TV what Berserk is to manga and Warhammer 40k is to tabletop games.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.@40848
You're forgetting however that there are people who want the White Walkers to win because of how dark it's become. No one wants Chaos to win for WH 40 K.
By contrast to this Beserk does have a few bright spots and most people are accepting of the Imperium's existence or that of the Tau's for the virtue of being the least bad for the galaxy for 40K.
If a Crapsack World like 40k can have standouts, GOT can (and going by their writeups, I'd be SHOCKED if anyone matches Ramsay (or Gregor).
40852 (And Lighty please keep snarky comments to yourself
): Walder's the one I wonder about; while Karl Tanner committed mass rape and murder and child-killing, the Red Wedding seems like more of a In-Universe Moral Event Horizon. There are, what, maybe a dozen victims?
If I recall correctly, Craster taunted the Night's Watch about the apocalypse that the White Walkers posing, stating he will live through it because he is "right with the real gods".
And to answer ACW's question on Walder, yes a violation of the Guest Right is considered heinous In-Universe, right next to kinslaying, kingslaying, and deserting the Night's Watch. The Red Wedding didn't just butcher a dozen, but it also amounts to the desecration of their bodies, especially what happened to Robb and his wolf.
edited 15th Jun '15 4:56:31 PM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."![]()
Hundreds, ACW. Possibly thousands since it was the vast majority of Robb's army that was wiped out. There were dozens of noble family members that supported Robb and were murdered at the Red Wedding, while the rest were Robb's troops who were murdered by Frey's men while celebrating with them.
@40850: Unlikely, I think there's a big difference between good characters not being rewarded or rarely surviving, and never having had any good and selfless characters in the first place. Granted the former runs the risk of pissing off your fanbase and making them apathetic to the work, but it's not the same as making the heinous standard unpassable.
edited 15th Jun '15 5:06:15 PM by OccasionalExister
Thanks. I retract my objection. I hope Walder reappears and isn't a Karma Houdini.
I feel like I keep having to say this: Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy is not the same thing as everyone being too awful for there to be a heinousness standard.

Ok I've seen Mother's Mercy and no one to add for GOT.
Melisandre does nothing new and as we talked about before, she fails the heinous standard and we can easily interpret from this episode that she left Stannis because she felt things went south over anything else. Stannis is obviously remorseful and it can be implied he deliberately went into the battle as a Death Seeker, accepted his fate before Brienne, no I AM THE REAL KING. Ellaria kills Jaime's daughter, but that barely scratches heinousness standard. As for existing C Ms that are featured such as Ramsey, he just kills a bunch of Stannis troops, nothing new to add to his entry. Through we could mention that he plans to use Sansa to birth a heir before killing or horrendously mutilating her in his entry. Gregor/Ser Robert Strong also has no new crimes, just appears to pick up Cersei.