TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#40751: Jun 13th 2015 at 6:54:57 AM

[tdown]on Menge for the reasons Exister noted. Doesn't sound like enough responsibility lands on him.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#40752: Jun 13th 2015 at 8:08:52 AM

While still supporting Whoreson I'll abstain for Menge until I finished the quest myself.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#40753: Jun 13th 2015 at 8:14:41 AM

I also give Menge a [tdown].

Also for the making a Buffyverse page, and I remember asking why we didn't make one months ago.

Also I have three votes [tup] for the Jackal from Paradise. Anymore ?

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#40754: Jun 13th 2015 at 8:56:10 AM

[tup] for Jackal.

I have a question: I have a feeling the answer will be no but just to make 100 percent sure, here it is anyway: There is a law that states that "fear from the loss of one's own life is no excuse for murder", meaning that if in real life you are placed in a Saw like situation, with someone telling you that you will die unless you take another person's life, you will still be charged with 2nd degree murder if you accept, as a good person would sacrafice themselves. With that in mind, let's say a character is placed in a situation like that. Let's say they are told something like "kill these 10 babies or die" and they do it with no hesitation or remorse. At their sentencing, they make it clear they feel no guilt at all, saying they would have killed a thousand other people before they allowed themselves to die. They were dragged out while screaming that they would kill the jurrors, the judge, and the prosecutor who condemned them. Of course the one who put them in that situation would qualify, but could they count too?

jjj
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#40755: Jun 13th 2015 at 9:04:33 AM

Probably, actually very likely even more so then the one who told them to kill,f they where willing to kill a thousand to save their own skin.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#40756: Jun 13th 2015 at 9:12:43 AM

@ACW If you're creating a World of Darkness page, don't forget to add Andrei the Tsimize from Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines. It is a video adaptation of the original tabletop game, and interestingly enough, the character of Andrei was inspired by Sascha Vykos.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
PostalDude47 I regret nothing! from Paradise, AZ Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
I regret nothing!
#40758: Jun 13th 2015 at 9:34:48 AM

For page images, are sequence images acceptable? For example, a character aiming a gun in the first image, and then a second character falling over with a bullet hole in their head in the second?

Also, fixed the grammar in the Hatred writeup slightly:

edited 13th Jun '15 9:35:11 AM by PostalDude47

The gene pool is stagnant and I am the minister of chlorine.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#40759: Jun 13th 2015 at 9:44:25 AM

[up]Yes. See Star Wars or James Bond. I requested the change for Not Important.

edited 13th Jun '15 11:20:42 AM by ACW

KyleJacobs from DC - Southern efficiency, Northern charm Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#40761: Jun 13th 2015 at 11:59:04 AM

So, this is going quite a while back, but remember when we were discussing the Mythology page? There seemed to be interest in the figure I'm about to describe, but since we couldn't find a reliable source for his myths (Wikipedia's coverage of this particular pantheon is awful) it never went anywhere. I'm pleased to announce I've managed to track down several retellings of his story, so ladies and gentlemen, the long-awaited return of Erlik.

Who is Erlik? What has he done?

Erlik is the Big Bad of the Altaic mythologies, encompassing much of ancient central Asia, including what is now Mongolia, Siberia, and the various countries ending in -stan. The Siberian telling of his story is the most complete I could find, so I'll be going with that.

Anyway, at the beginning of time, the creator-god Ulgan (who is either the Top God or next-from-top after his more remote father Tengri depending on the version) saw a speck of mud floating in the Primordial Chaos. He decided to give it life, and named the new being Erlik, whom he intended to be his assistant in creation. Erlik's task was to hold the cosmic mud that Ulgan used to sculpt the Earth for him, but Erlik thought he would be a better creator than Ulgan and so saved some of the dirt in his mouth. However, it tasted terrible, and he eventually vomited it back up, and from this vomit came all the nastier features of the natural world - swamps, poisonous plants, and so forth.

When Ulgan found out about Erlik's treason, he banished him, and in revenge Erlik decided he'd screw with Ulgan's creation yin any way possible. He vomited once again on the first humans, resulting in all the nasty traits of humanity. When Ulgan created the savior-figure Maidere, intended to tell all cosmic truths to humans and enlighten them, Erlik murdered him just to tick Ulgan off (or in some version corrupted him and his wife a la Adam and Eve). With Maidere gone, humans could only gain small bits of enlightenment at a time through shamans.

In his capacity as God of Death Erlik was a totally-accurate example of Everybody Hates Hades; while he was worshipped and sacrificed to in this capacity, it was more like being worshipped against; the ancient Mongols and Siberians believed that if proper funerary rites, including sacrifices to Erlik, were not observed, he would drag off the soul of the deceased to be his slave forever, again just to spite Ulgan.

Heinous standard

In this mythology, he is the heinous standard, as the only God of Evil. Effortless pass.

Mitigating factors? Freudian Excuse

Erlik's motivation seems to be mainly centered on the fact that Ulgan basically treated him as the divine equivalent of You, Get Me Coffee during creation, but at least in my view this is a flimsy excuse, seeing as he was arrogant from the beginning. I don't think it justifies his Revenge by Proxy on Ulgan's creations, either, particularly the whole enslave-your-soul-forever thing. I think he passes.

Conclusion

I think he's a solid keep, but I'm always welcome to opinions!

edited 13th Jun '15 12:00:03 PM by HamburgerTime

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#40763: Jun 13th 2015 at 1:34:33 PM

I had previously voted for Erlik, so yes.

  • Lost Hearts by MR James: Mr. Abney is a seemingly avuncular and kindly caretaker who takes in his orphaned 11 year old cousin Stephen. Stephen soon notices the ghosts of a little Gypsy girl and a young Italian boy prowling the grounds, and it is revealed Abney himself is an occultist who wishes to achieve great power. To this end, Abney takes in children and once they hit a certain age, he cuts out and consumes their hearts which also condemns them to fate as lonely specters. Stephen is his net intended victim and Abney uses his own journals to gloat over how ridiculous the concept that human justice can apply to him is, seeing nothing wrong with sacrificing children for his own benefit.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#40764: Jun 13th 2015 at 1:36:17 PM

I think I'll give [tup] to Elick.

Going to wait until 6:00 or 7:00 tonight (in my time zone atleast) to post my entry for the Jackal, in case I get more [tup] votes or some [tdown] votes. I'm also reposting my Margret Goodnight entry to make sure I don't I don't leave any loose ends untied.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#40766: Jun 13th 2015 at 2:26:50 PM

I'll do Lighty's entry and maybe Jackal tomorrow, and submit 'em Monday or Tuesday.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#40767: Jun 13th 2015 at 2:31:35 PM

[tup] Elick

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#40768: Jun 13th 2015 at 2:41:33 PM

It's Erlik, guys. And I'll give him a [tup] as well.

sanfranman91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#40769: Jun 13th 2015 at 3:04:11 PM

Erlick is an easy qualifier. [tup] for him and Jackal, and a [tdown] to Menge.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40770: Jun 13th 2015 at 3:14:30 PM

Deleted this example from Naruto the Movie: Legend of the Stone of Gelel

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#40771: Jun 13th 2015 at 3:26:39 PM

Erlik seems to have widespread approval, but is it alright if I wait for Ambar, since he's kind of our Unofficial Myth Guy, to weigh in before writing him up?

Nohbody "In distress", my ass. from Somewhere in Dixie Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
"In distress", my ass.
#40772: Jun 13th 2015 at 3:43:27 PM

[up] It's been not even a quarter-day since Erlik was brought up again. A leeeetle more time for others to chime in, especially over the weekend, might not be the worst of ideas. tongue

All your safe space are belong to Trump
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#40773: Jun 13th 2015 at 3:54:32 PM

I will say yes to Erlik, Jackal and a late yes to Oleg.

I will say no to Menge and I am leaning on saying no to Woldarski.

So its a minium of 5 up votes before someone can do a write up? Dang, I have 4 up votes and 0 votes on X-Men Legends Apocalypse, if I had one more yes vote, I could make a write up on him

The 3 Justice League Gods and Monsters shorts are out, though the movie doesn't come out till the end of July. Of the 3 shorts, Harley Quinn easily seems like the worst of the villains, with the alternate versions of Brainiac, Giganta and Kobra not seeming as bad as she is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpu6yPAFHrs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYSxN4ezhO4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOWLqnjFN64

But I don't if a 5 minute short leading up to a bigger movie has enough screen time to establish someone as a monster or not.

edited 13th Jun '15 3:55:01 PM by Overlord

Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#40774: Jun 13th 2015 at 3:55:55 PM

Do we even know if Harley will be in the movie or not?

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#40775: Jun 13th 2015 at 4:00:40 PM

[up] I would doubt it, given that Batman seems to kill her at the end of the short.

Perhaps that is simply not enough time for this version of Harley to be considered a monster.


Total posts: 326,048
Top