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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#40326: Jun 3rd 2015 at 8:42:36 PM

Add me as a "no". Doesn't sound like there's enough personality going on there.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#40327: Jun 3rd 2015 at 8:46:18 PM

I think I may say no as well.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#40328: Jun 3rd 2015 at 9:08:09 PM

I'm going to abstain on the Hatred protagonist as I have zero interest in finding videos or whatever just to see if he has enough personality to count.

That said, I think this thread has been too quick to throw around the GDV label in the past.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#40329: Jun 3rd 2015 at 9:10:54 PM

No to the Hatred Protagonist. Not enough personality.

Shadow?
Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#40330: Jun 3rd 2015 at 9:27:14 PM

I just don't understand how he has less personality than Michael Myers.

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#40331: Jun 3rd 2015 at 9:53:37 PM

[up] Good point. I myself was abstaining on him, but after reading that, I will throw in a [tup].

jjj
SuperSaiyaMan Since: Jun, 2009
#40332: Jun 3rd 2015 at 10:11:05 PM

[tdown] For the Hatred guy. At least until we get more information about his character. If the game does well you know we'll just get some books or comics to expand on it.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#40333: Jun 3rd 2015 at 10:16:21 PM

[up][up] The thing there, though? We learn quite a bit about Michael and what he represents. I'm not seeing what makes the Hatred guy different from a variety of other shooter protagonists

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#40334: Jun 3rd 2015 at 10:30:29 PM

[up][up][up]Michael actually displays a fair amount of characterization, especially for somebody nonverbal. From what I'm reading, this guy, despite being able to talk, does not. If he does, that's fine, but we need to be told more about it.

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#40335: Jun 4th 2015 at 12:04:17 AM

Not Important doesn't have much personality, but other complete monsters such as Ryan Anderson and Micheal Myers didn't have much personality either, so I'm going with a [tup] for him.

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#40336: Jun 4th 2015 at 12:37:03 AM

I'll give a [tdown] for Not Important from Hatred. From the sound of things he's utterly lacking in personality, and all the comparisons to Michael Myers fall flat because Myers does have a personality.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#40337: Jun 4th 2015 at 1:14:22 AM

Count me as a [tup] for Not Important.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#40338: Jun 4th 2015 at 1:43:35 AM

So it's 12:10 in favor of him now. Enough or not?

edited 4th Jun '15 1:44:00 AM by Forenperser

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#40339: Jun 4th 2015 at 1:45:33 AM

Too close to call. One yay swapping to a nay would make it a draw.

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#40341: Jun 4th 2015 at 4:53:07 AM

Bah, I feel like this vote will go on for a while. >__<

What about Mars? The vote's still 3 [tup] and 2 [tdown], although from what I've read, some people are on the fence about him. Is there anyone else who feels like voting? It's the same situation with Not Important/The Crusaduer/The Antagonist/That Guy Who Looks Like That Dude From Metalocalypse. The voting's a close call. I wanna have at least 5, maybe 6 [tup] before editing his writeup or 5 or 6 [tdown] before deciding to scratch him.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#40342: Jun 4th 2015 at 4:57:26 AM

Another thing on Mars having it difficult to meet the heinous standard, and something Tyk failed to mention: the movie opens with an entirely seperate hostage situation where Bruce Willis fails to prevent a manic guy from murdering his (own) wife and child. Mars has a valid Freudian Excuse, interacts with others in a way that's incredibly hard to place, and he's barely worse than either the Pater Familicide in the opening and the Syndicate members who kidnap and threaten to kill Willis's family.

edited 4th Jun '15 5:03:13 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#40343: Jun 4th 2015 at 5:27:09 AM

[up] Something that slipped my mind entirely when I was writing up the heinous standard portion. Damn. >___< Okay, let me go through all the movie's villains real quick.

The man from the beginning, who kills his wife and son before murdering himself.

Dennis, who is a huge Jerkass who bashes Walter Smith in the head with his gun and take his family hostage. From certain police chatter, he also went to juvenile hall many times.

Kevin, who is kinda just there because he went along with his older brother, Dennis. An Anti-Villain. Suffers from a Heel–Face Door-Slam.

Mars, who is Ax-Crazy, kills a cop, Dennis, Kevin, and three corrupt(?) FBI agents after setting the house on fire. Has a huge Freudian Excuse and has a somewhat decent relationship with Jennifer before he slowly slips into his Villainous Breakdown.

The Syndicate, who kidnap Talley's wife and daughter, threatening to kill them if they don't recover Walter's DVD.

Walter Smith, a man who works for the syndicate and encrypted the files they want. Largely an Anti-Villain.

An unknown Bigger Bad, who we only see through phone calls and possibly suffers a Karma Houdini.

The corrupt(?) FBI agents who storm the house after it burns trying to recover the DVD. They don't try to kill Walter's children, but they don't try to save them either. The leader also tries to kill Talley when he gets in his way, only to be "saved" when Mars throws a Molotov cocktail at him, giving Talley time to take out his gun and shoot him.

edited 4th Jun '15 5:29:54 AM by Tyk5919

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#40344: Jun 4th 2015 at 5:32:00 AM

[up]Bah, Freudian Excuse notwithstanding, it doesn't seem anyone really stands out in heinousness for there to be ANY CM in the work.

Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#40345: Jun 4th 2015 at 7:53:16 AM

So what personality traits does Michael Myers have besides being a psychopath who kills for the sake of killing?

If fact, you don't even need to look at Michael Myers, for example the killer from the creepypasta 1999 only displays a hatred for humanity and considers them to be 'garbage', but nobody had a problem with him qualifying, nor should they have in my opinion. How is that different than the Hatred guy?

I would agree that he has no personality if he was just making one-liners the whole time and that was it, but he explicitly expresses his hatred for people. There's feeling behind what he does, and that's what makes the difference for me.

edited 4th Jun '15 8:04:10 AM by Camberf

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#40346: Jun 4th 2015 at 7:59:22 AM

I would suggest Bodhi from Point Break as he's similar to the Joker, but he didn't want to personally handle Tyler's kidnapping and left it to Rosie because it'd be too hard for him, so [tdown].

Since there's enough votes, the write up of Geiger:

Speed 2: Cruise Control: John Gieger, though arguably less bloodthristy, is not much different from Howard Payne. While Payne's bombings are a much more conscious seeker of death at every turn, Gieger takes a more calais approach to human life. Yes, he has his indignation about being fired over the copper poisoning he got from the job itself, but to make his point, he plans out a hostile takeover of the ship's controls and plans to crash it into an oil tanker with innocent crewmen who had nothing to do with the Seabourn Legend. In the matter of the cruise ship's crew, it's guilt by association in Gieger's mind, but that doesn't excuse it or when he continues forward even after innocent passengers are still stranded on board. Not to mention that while everyone is distracted by the disaster itself, he robs the ship's vault of priceless jewels. Earlier, he throws the captain overboard just to get him out of the way. He leaves Alex and Juliano to die when they attempt to jam the propeller of the ship too. In sharp contrast to Payne, while Payne had the civility to not use physical force against Annie (though strapping a bomb to her chest is arguably worse and how he got it on to begin with comes to question), Gieger resorts to nearly pummeling Annie and smacking her around so that he can use her as a hostage as well. His roughness when simply using a gun to force her cooperation was purely unnecessary. In many ways, just like Payne, he did it because it was all a game to him.

If it's a little too long, once again, I'll edit it down. He didn't let the passengers escape because he cared, he did it so it would not complicate his plans, much like when Payne let Sam off to be treated for his wounds.

edited 4th Jun '15 8:02:48 AM by futuremoviewriter

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#40347: Jun 4th 2015 at 8:03:13 AM

[up]A bit lengthy, but serviceable. Was he approved for sure?

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#40348: Jun 4th 2015 at 9:06:30 AM

Well, the main character does give some cheesy one liners upon performing executions (which do not move him out of the played seriously qualification as his rampage itself is still treated seriously), two examples would be "Let me introduce myself, I'm a man of hatred" and "This is more than a killing spree, it's a mission". Are one liners like that enough to establish just enough of a personality? If you need more samples of his dialogue, I can get it for you.

jjj
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#40349: Jun 4th 2015 at 9:09:08 AM

Michael actually displays a love of screwing with his victims that's absent from most other slasher villains. He moves his sister's tombstone and puts it in the attic in order to spook his next target. He kills a girl while dressed in her boyfriend's Halloween costume in order to mess with her. Throughout the film Michael plays a cat-and-mouse game with the girls, giving out Hope Spots and then snatching them away. He's got a very clear sadistic streak, and he acts on it for the whole movie (and most of its sequels, honestly).

It also helps that we have Dr. Loomis' testimony as to Michael's mental state. He gives us an elaboration, however brief, on just what is going on inside Michael's head, which also aids qualification.

Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#40350: Jun 4th 2015 at 9:51:19 AM

Well, that's a fair point about the Hope Spot. Personally, I think that the Hatred guy expresses his hatred and disgust enough not to be a GDV, but it looks like this will come down to opinion.

edited 4th Jun '15 9:51:33 AM by Camberf


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