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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#39651: May 20th 2015 at 12:17:41 PM

Very Melon: At the risk of making it more of a Wall of Text, you think there should be mention of the series transparent attempts to humanize him ?

edited 20th May '15 12:19:34 PM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#39652: May 20th 2015 at 12:37:19 PM

No. If they were anything meaningful he wouldn't count.

edited 20th May '15 12:37:39 PM by VeryMelon

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#39653: May 20th 2015 at 12:55:29 PM

What I meant was mention how he seemed to have everyone's best interests at heart, but it was all a façade.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#39655: May 20th 2015 at 2:42:38 PM

I'll work on Thawne this weekend. Why exactly does he want to kill The Flash? So he can continue doing evil deeds?

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#39656: May 20th 2015 at 2:50:35 PM

When asked, Thawne's answer amounts to "Because I hate you" and why asked why they are enemies in the first place, he replies "It doesn't matter now"

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#39657: May 20th 2015 at 2:54:22 PM

Alright then. Though it seems like he was always bad.

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#39658: May 20th 2015 at 3:31:26 PM

Tekken • Complete Monster: Kazuya in the Live-Action Adaptation. He is devoid of his sympathetic qualities, making him The Starscream to Heihachi just For the Evulz, he has no Devil Gene, and he raped Jun, which later led to Jin's birth. ◦ Gets worse. The direct-to-video Prequel, Tekken 2: Kazuya's Revenge is practically a Start of Darkness for Kazuya, and given the ending, Foregone Conclusion is in play.

I have not seen the first movie, but in the prequel, he befriends a woman named Laura after saving her from a group of muggers, and later becomes enraged upon her death.

PS: This is the last film example in the ymmv sandbox other than Fist Of The North Star, which I believe Morgenthaler said he'd see.

jjj
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#39659: May 20th 2015 at 4:19:36 PM

[up]It was me who said I'd watch Fist. Now, whether I actualyl get AROUND to it...tongue
P.S. Don't forget to remove the entries from the YMMV pages themselves. I took care of Dead Man and Silent Hill.

Ekimmak Since: Nov, 2010
#39660: May 20th 2015 at 4:23:45 PM

I dropped off the thread for a while to avoid spoilers on the latest Avengers movie.

I'm hoping any discussion is finished now, because I finally finished VC 2, and have points to make on Baldren.

He really was a patriot. When he asked them to protect his homeland, he really meant it. But does that really redeem him, when his idea of protection is to slaughter indiscriminately? He certainly wasn't the same person who was playing card games with his troops at the start of the story.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#39661: May 20th 2015 at 4:51:54 PM

[up]Seems like he may have started off as a WIE, but Jumped Off The Slippery Slope, in which case he CAN qualify (Xehanort, Embryo).
[nja]Oh, and yeah, looks like we're done with Avengers 2 discussion.

edited 20th May '15 4:52:22 PM by ACW

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#39662: May 20th 2015 at 9:46:09 PM

@ST89: Ooh, another discussion involving an "old-school" classic of mine.grin

I can see how Eric Qualen could qualify, and you do make a few good points. But I'm inclined to vote [tdown], simply because all the villains (except the henchwoman Qualen shoots) are evil bastards in their own regard. Qualen seems more like a Bad Boss than a CM. I'm also inclined, if anything, for Delmar to qualify instead of Qualen. Now, I haven't seen the movie in a while (I should rectify that >___<), but most of what Delmar does is For the Evulz. Qualen seems to care more about getting all of his money; Delmar seems to care more about being evil because....reasons.

Travers being a CM is a definite [tdown] though. He just came off as a whiny, backstabbing Smug Snake to me.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Ekimmak Since: Nov, 2010
#39663: May 21st 2015 at 4:45:14 AM

Well, I first brought up Baldren a couple of months ago, because of his positive interactions with his troops. But someone pointed out that he was a case of Jumping Off the Slippery Slope.

So, I played the game, saw that indeed he loses those interactions after he kills his father, but was still a bit concerned due to his last words. And having seen it again, and having it fresh in my mind, I'll say this.

He kept his patriotism to the end, and I do believe he genuinely asked them to protect his homeland. But his patriotism was twisted enough that it isn't a redeeming trait.

I'm just reporting what I found, and my take on the situation.

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#39664: May 21st 2015 at 5:28:05 AM

So should Kazuya be cut given the information I gave?

jjj
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#39665: May 21st 2015 at 5:54:52 AM

Definite [tdown] on Kazuya and add [tup] for Reverse Flash.

As for Cliffhanger, I vote [tup] for Delmar, and still [tdown] on Qualen.But only barely on Qualen and I could be convinced by a right argument. And for those who have not seen the movie, it can be watched for free here. Watch it, is awesome.

edited 21st May '15 5:58:23 AM by emperors

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
forsetipurge Since: Sep, 2010
#39666: May 21st 2015 at 7:48:30 AM

Hey guys, I have another Jack Reacher CM candidate for you.

Edward Lane, the psychotic, Control Freak head of an illegal mercenary operation in the Hard Way, also the real Big Bad of the story.

In the past, he murdered his first wife to keep her from divorcing him (and demanding alimony), framed one of his own soldiers for it, used his mercenary operation to rob a country's national bank, and betrayed two soldiers of his own to a gang of African militias known to mutilate their prisoners. Also, he promised to rupture his then-five-years-old daughter's hymen with a potato peeler (her name is Jade) if he so much as thinks his second wife, Kate, is being unfaithful.

In the present, naturally enough, Kate wants to get out of her marriage. Having been informed about what happened in the past by a relative of the betrayed soldier, Kate has to stage a kidnapping with her paramour (a Token Good Teammate in Lane's mercenary op, his name is Taylor), with the understanding that if she tries to legally divorce Lane Lane will just murder her. At the climax of the story, Lane rounds up Kate, Jade, Taylor, and Taylor's brother to be executed, but when he notices Kate is now pregnant with Taylor's brother, he stops from killing her right away and instead ties her up on a barn table to manually abort her. Course, that's after he's ordered his goons to find a potato peeler for Jade.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#39667: May 21st 2015 at 7:53:57 AM

“What?” he said. “What are you telling me?”

She shook her head.

“You’re pregnant,” he said. “You’re pregnant, aren’t you? You are. I know it. You look different. I can tell.”

He put the flat of his hand on her belly. She pulled away, backward, hard against the pole she was tied to. He shuffled forward half a step. “Oh man, this is unbelievable. You’re going to die with another man’s child inside you.”

Then he spun away. Stopped, and turned back. Shook his head.

“Can’t allow that,” he said. “Wouldn’t be right. We’ll have to abort it first. I should have told Perez to find a coat hanger. But I didn’t. So we’ll find something else instead. There’s got to be something here. This is a farm after all.”

He was crouching outside the kitchen door, sorting through all the things that Perez had dropped. An MP 5 K with a thirty-round magazine and a ballistic nylon shoulder sling. A flashlight, now broken. Two black-handled kitchen knives, one long, one short, one serrated, one plain. A souvenir corkscrew from a car ferry operator.

And a potato peeler.

Its handle was a plain wooden peg. Once red, now faded. Tightly bound to it with thick wrapped string was a simple pressed-metal blade. Slightly pointed, with a raised flange and a slot. An old-fashioned design. Plain, utilitarian, well used.

Reacher stared at it for a moment. Then he put it in his pocket. He buried the longer knife to its hilt in Perez’s chest. Tucked the shorter knife in his own shoe. Kicked the corkscrew and the broken flashlight into the shadows. Used his thumb to clean Perez’s blood and frontal lobe off of the G-36’s monocular lens. Picked up the MP 5 submachine gun and slung it over his left shoulder.

surprised Easy [tup], if just for those two alone. The rest only clinches it.

edited 21st May '15 7:56:25 AM by ACW

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#39668: May 21st 2015 at 7:54:42 AM

Kazuya[tdown], Delmar[tup], Qualen[tdown], Edward Lane[tup]

ST89 Since: Feb, 2015
#39669: May 21st 2015 at 9:10:13 AM

I'd like to make you notice that Delmar is the first one of Qualen's henchmen to suggest to quit and leave without the money, but Qualen insist on carry on the quest. Considering what happen next we could say that Delmar, sadist and psychotic as he can be, had some points. Moreover I think some people tends to forget that Qualen is the mastermind of the whole thing so that makes him responsible for all those deaths that happen in the movie. Yes, is motivated by greed unlike Delmar who acts more for thrill but he displays cruelty and ruthlessness and no remorse for the deaths of both innocents and his own men.

Delmar, exepct killing Frank, just follows Qualen's orders. I also think that if he killed Frank without being worryied about Qualen's protests, I guess he already knew Qualen wouldn't have anything against it unlike Kristel who calls him out. All Qualen says to Tucker is a cynical "Touchy" (I think it was). That makes me think there's chance they both qualify. They just have some different kind of evil but equally heinous. Kinda like Dick Jones and Clarence Boddicker.

edited 21st May '15 9:20:54 AM by ST89

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#39670: May 21st 2015 at 9:25:07 AM

To be honest, you are actually selling me on Qualen.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#39671: May 21st 2015 at 9:34:57 AM

Vote yes for Edward. I may watch Cliffhanger before I give an opinion on Qualen.

Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#39672: May 21st 2015 at 10:27:19 AM

If we decide Qualen counts, then I think John Lithgow would hold the record for playing the most individual CMs at three, right?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#39673: May 21st 2015 at 10:42:25 AM

What besides that and Ricochet?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#39675: May 21st 2015 at 11:08:06 AM

Lithgow plaued Burke in Blow Out so he's already 3 in.

Korean actor Choi-Min Sik is also a three timer on the list: Lucy, I Saw The Devil and Sympathy for Lady Vengeance.

Tim Roth may have played 3 as well.

edited 21st May '15 11:12:14 AM by Lightysnake


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