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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#38452: Apr 14th 2015 at 12:49:37 PM

There isn't a YMMV section, though.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#38453: Apr 14th 2015 at 12:54:16 PM

That's what I as getting at. I'm not really going to debate this though, if he stays he stays.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#38454: Apr 14th 2015 at 12:57:54 PM

[up][up]Yeah, I know...'tis odd.
BTW, so what's the line as to whether a Freudian Excuse disqualifies someone or, like this for Foyet's, it doesn't?

Foyet was born around 1968, likely in the Boston area. He was frequently beaten by his father during his early years, and although his mother tried to protect him, she wasn't strong enough. He subsequently hated her for this and came to think of all women as weak.

edited 14th Apr '15 2:45:17 PM by ACW

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#38455: Apr 14th 2015 at 3:26:54 PM

I am aware that Demigra was briefly brought up a whilgo andut. I would like to reopen discussion.

Who is Demigra?

Demigra is the Big Bad of Dragonball Xenoverse. The "demon god" who wants to rule all of time and the universe.

What does he do?

Long ago, he tried to use the time vault to gain control of all time and take over the universe. The supreme kai of time defeated him and sealed him away inside a crack in time. As the Disc one final bosses, Towa and Mira, cause chaos in their attempt to gain enough energy to take over the demon realm, the chaos in time causes Demigra's seal to weaken. By the time Towa and Mira have been dealt with, the seal has now been weakened enough for Demigra to send out a mirage of himself that has enough power t oact on the physical plane. Demigra goes about trying to cause even more chaos in time in order to free himself the rest of the way. In one timeline, he brainwashes Piccolo to make him try to kill Goten and Trunks. In another timeline, he tries to brainwash Beerus to make him destroy Earth. After he is freed, Demigra brainwashes Time Patrol Trunks and makes him try to kill the unnamed hero. This is a stand out act as Time Patrol Trunks and the hero are friends. After growing fed up with the good guys, Demigra decides to just destroy the time vault, which would destroy the entire universe, simply so that he can rewrite reality to create a universe where everything revolves entirely around him.

Is he bad enough by the standards of the story?

He's just as bad as Cell. Cell indicated that he had no plan of ruling the universe and instead planned on wiping out Earth and repeating the process with every other planet. Demigra has the same goal, except, after destroying the universe, he plans on recreating it in his image. While perhaps not AS sadistic as Frieza or Cell, he's still sadistic enough, making Time Patrol Trunks try to kill his friend and making Piccolo try to kill Goten and present Trunks (which is even worse when you think about it since Goten is Gohan's little brother and Piccolo cared a great deal for Gohan) are good examples. Actually, Frieza, cell, and Buu, all take part in an Enemy Mine, helping to train you for the fight with Demigra. Don't worry, Frieza and Cell are just doing it since they would be destroyed too, they are temporary allies, not friends, sso this does not disqualify either of them. I think the fact that he pulls an Eviler than Thou on three other villains, two of whom have been voted C Ms, gives a good indication of how bad he is. As for the other villains exclusive to the game, Towa and Mira, they only plan to conquer the demon realm, not destroy the universe.

Redeeming features or migrating factors?

None.

Is he bad enough for this trope?

Well, he planned to destroy the universe, and he tried to make the hero's friend kill him. That's in addition to making Piccolo try to kill Goten and Trunks, as well as trying to make Beerus destroy Earth.

Conclusion?

I see absolutely no reason why Demigra should not qualify.

jjj
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#38456: Apr 14th 2015 at 5:41:07 PM

[tup] Demigra.

Any more votes on Dr. Yung?

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#38458: Apr 14th 2015 at 6:10:36 PM

Eh... Abstaining on Yung. Even with the Pokemon franchise's lower standards, I'm still really split on the Marauder himself and even J. Yung sounds about as heinous as them, so I can't weigh in.

I'll give a [tup] to Demigra, given that there are no mitigating qualities you're skipping on.

edited 14th Apr '15 6:11:31 PM by Scraggle

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#38459: Apr 14th 2015 at 6:15:12 PM

I see what you mean there, Scraggle. Though he does look heinous enough given his resources. Though, it's my opinion, of course. But, yeah, they're all Pokemon abusers, two of them committed attempted murder, some engaged in child abuse or the endangerment of one (an example would be when the Iron-Masked Marauder crushed Ash's fingers until he fainted), etc. So, how would Yung stand out?

edited 14th Apr '15 6:22:30 PM by AustinDR

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#38460: Apr 14th 2015 at 6:19:37 PM

@ Dr. Yung: How sapient are his mirages? The missile plan certainly sounds nasty, but it sounds like he mostly abuses his own creations.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#38461: Apr 14th 2015 at 6:24:12 PM

His mirage Mew was able to disobey him.

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#38462: Apr 14th 2015 at 6:26:40 PM

[up] and [up] I mentioned how the Mirage Mew at least was proven to be as sapient and real as a naturally born or cloned Pokemon - that was what Yung considered the "flaw" in that particular specimen. And it's not just his own creations, since he tortured Ash's Pikachu in scanning it's memory, tried to kill Professor Oak after he was done with him, and spoke of unleashing his Mirage Mewtwo's power "on the world" as revenge for his research getting shut down.

edited 14th Apr '15 6:27:13 PM by ANewMan

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#38464: Apr 14th 2015 at 6:32:07 PM

[up][up] A psychic nuke to the entire planet over being jilted on research, eh? [tup]

Cakeman Since: Dec, 2012
#38465: Apr 14th 2015 at 8:30:02 PM

Want me to make a writeup for him?

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#38466: Apr 14th 2015 at 8:36:33 PM

It's probably not necessary.

edited 14th Apr '15 9:55:46 PM by AustinDR

PhantomHeartless5 Since: Sep, 2012
#38467: Apr 14th 2015 at 9:57:19 PM

Um, hey there. It's kinda my first time doing this type of thing and I don't have a character to nominate as a Complete Monster. (I was gonna nominate Majora, but it seems he's already been discussed.) So, I figured I'd play it safe and suggest a rewrite of Zant's entry as I feel it has a few things wrong.

Here's how it's currently written.

  • The Sociopathic Zant is described by the game as a "Usurper King". At first, he gained power from Ganondorf, but he had his own agenda. His first heinous act was attempting to murder Midna, the rightful heir to the throne of the Twili. When that failed, he transformed her into an imp and banished her and transformed all her people into hideous shadow beasts just so he could have zero opposition to the throne. When he took over, his lust for power still wasn't satisfied, so he decided to extend his tyrannical reign to the prosperous kingdom of Hyrule. There he executed the Queen of Zoras in front of them, and froze Zora's Domain, leaving many of the Zoras to die. He then forced Princess Zelda to surrender and uses Twilight on her kingdom of Hyrule, rendering all the citizens of Hyrule as spirits who could only watch as the shadow beasts tore up the kingdom. When he's confronted by Link, he attempts to kill Midna and transforms Link into a wolf with powerful magic just because Midna defied him, and later rants about only he is allowed to rule the world.

Here's how I think it should be written.

How's this?

PhantomHeartless5 Since: Sep, 2012
#38469: Apr 14th 2015 at 9:59:43 PM

Too long, huh? Sorry. Like I said, first time doing this.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#38470: Apr 15th 2015 at 1:03:21 AM

[up]No troubles. It's cool. For future reference, we try to keep entries below 300 words if possibl (loose guideline).

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#38471: Apr 15th 2015 at 4:56:40 AM

Kind of earl I know, but just s a test run, and to give Phantom Hearless 5 an idea of how long our entries can be, here is a rough draft write up for Demigra:

edited 15th Apr '15 4:57:29 AM by bobg

jjj
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#38472: Apr 15th 2015 at 1:30:54 PM

I thought Robert Doob from Eye for an Eye definitely counted.[tup] Even if Juma loved his son, his cruel act was extremely brutal and unnecessary and he sort of used his son's death as an excuse for it.[tup] Piet Smit doesn't love his daughter enough to consider how she'd feel about what he's doing to Wikus.[tup] Nina Myers, as bad as she is, doesn't enjoy the carnage she causes, so [tdown] marginally. The Teacher from The Juror is indefinite. I'd need to see it again.

edited 15th Apr '15 3:04:44 PM by futuremoviewriter

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#38473: Apr 15th 2015 at 2:19:43 PM

[up] On account of Nina, I'm not familiar with 24, but are you saying she was remorseful or just indifferent ? Because indifference isn't a migrating factor.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#38474: Apr 15th 2015 at 2:26:37 PM

[up] She seemed to regret more that (she thinks) she had to do it rather than actually doing it. She, personally, didn't have an issue with any of it so I suppose you're right. I'm on the fence about John Gieger from Speed 2 as well, though everybody else seems to concur that he qualifies and that although his Freudian Excuse is more identifiable than Payne's, it's not a reasonable enough excuse for what he does.

edited 15th Apr '15 2:31:14 PM by futuremoviewriter

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#38475: Apr 15th 2015 at 2:58:18 PM

[up] Piet Smit is not disqualified due to loving his daughter (he does not) but because he strongly fails the heinous standard. [tup] For Nina Myers.

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