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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#38176: Apr 8th 2015 at 4:46:17 PM

Speaking of A Clockwork Orange, why is Alex not on the list?

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#38177: Apr 8th 2015 at 4:49:13 PM

Papa Jupiter is an obvious cut.

@38168: Hold on Lighty, if the entry was added without being discussed here, it's fine to cut it and link to the thread.

And Klavice, hope things turn out okay.

edited 8th Apr '15 7:47:26 PM by TVRulezAgain

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#38178: Apr 8th 2015 at 5:13:29 PM

I think Alex in the movie is on the Film page, but Alex in the book was given an APV moment or some redeeming qualities. (Don't ask me, I haven't read ACO) If Film!Alex is not on the page, I don't know why he was cut. He most certainly passes the heinous standard.

Also, should I cut Checker Monarch from that MLP fanwork that I just mentioned as quite a few of you have pointed out what I was thinking: She does not pass the heinous standard.

Also, I did some digging around and Ruinate doesn't have any redeeming qualities or an APV death. Should we keep him, or cut (and request expansion)?

[down] Yeah, that's what I thought. Grey and Gray Morality is usually a good reason to cut.

edited 8th Apr '15 5:18:25 PM by Klavice

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#38179: Apr 8th 2015 at 5:16:32 PM

Pretty sure Alex was cut because the government is just as bad.

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#38180: Apr 8th 2015 at 5:46:31 PM

A third Rampage film is planned in the future (May 2016), so I wouldn't use the word "Duology" in the write up.

Sorry Klavice. I would ask the details, but this is probably not the place to discuss it. I suggest you do anything to avoid losing it. Since this might be the last time you communicate with anyone on here, good luck.

Does anyone have any opinions on Strasser from Mighty Joe Young? I don't think he qualifies. Here is an effort post:

Who is Strasser?

Strasser is the leader of a gang of poachers, and the main villain of the film.

What does he do?

In the opening, he and his gang are trying to poach some gorrillas. Strasser kills the young Joe's mother, and is about to capture Joe when Joe bights off Strasser's right thumb and trigger finger. Determined to kill Joe, Strasser takes a gun and is about to shoot Joe when Ruth Young arrives to save Joe. Strasser shoots at Joe as he's being carried away by Ruth, accidently shooting Ruth in the process. Garth (Strasser's right hand man) suggests that they help the injured Ruth, but Strasser refuses, stating "If these people want to live like heroes, let them die like heroes". Ruth dies soon after. Before dying, Ruth asks her daughter Jill to look after Joe. 12 years later, Strasser and Garth run an animal preserve as a front to kill endangered animals and sell their parts on the black market. When Strasser and Garth see Joe on TV, they decide to kill him for the money they can make as well as revenge for bighting off Strassers right thumb and trigger finger. The two annoy Joe with keys, causing him to go on a rampage. When Jill learns that Joe may be put to sleep for the rampage he caused, Strasser shows up claiming to be an old friend of her mother. Strasser offers to smuggle Joe into his game preserve, and Jill, not recognizing him, agrees. As Jill rides with Strasser and Garth in the vehicle transporting Joe, she notices Strassers missing fingers, finally recognizing him. As Gregg (her partner and later boyfriend) starts chasing after Strasser in his vehicle (having learned that Strasser and Garth are poachers), Strasser reaches for his gun, clearly intending to shoot at Gregg's car and kill him. Jill stops Strasser from shooting and escapes the vehicle as Joe breaks out. Later, Strasser and Garth arrive at a carnival to find Joe, Gregg, and Jill. Strasser tries to shoot Jill, stating that if she tells anyone who they really are, their fake game preserve business will be ruined (he was also likely going to try and shoot Gregg next since he also knew and was standing right next to her). Garth stops Strasser from shooting Jill, causing the gun to misfire, with the bullet hiting a spotlight, causing a fire to break out, endangering many lives. Strasser shows no concern for any of the children or adults at the carnival, and knocks out Garth with his gun. Finally, Strasser goes up to Jill with his gun, telling her "Goodbye Jill. Meet your mother in Hell". Before Strasser can kill Jill, Joe sneaks up behind him, and throws him into a transformer, electrocuting him to death (Garth's fate is never revealed).

Redeeming Features?

None.

Migrating factors?

None.

Most heinouess character in the story?

Yes, although Garth is a horrible man himself. The one thing that makes Strasser worse is the fact that he will kill humans. Garth stopped him from shooting Jill the first time, and he suggested that they help the injured Ruth after Strasser accidentaly shot her, so while he's clearly a cruel man to animals, he is above killing humans.

Does he meet the baseline?

I wouldsay no. We don't usually treat animal cruelty as a stand out crime like murder, rape, slavery, or a Frame-Up. It woul take A LOT of animal cruelty for that one crime to meet the baseline (like raping and killing both adult and baby animals, slaughtering a zoo, dissecting animals alive, eating baby seals that you clubbed to death, or burning down a puppy farm). Strasser kills endangered animals to sell their parts on the black market, and shoots a mother gorilla dead in addition to targeting Joe. killing Ruth was an accident (even IF he refused to help her after he shot her), as was starting the fire at the carnival (even IF he felt no remorse or showed no concern for anyone there). This leaves him with two attempted murders, one case of accidentaly fatally injuring someone and refusing to help them, tons of poaching, and one case of showing no remorse at starting a fire that could kill people. He does not stand out to me.

jjj
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#38181: Apr 8th 2015 at 5:57:03 PM

Are the animals sentient? For example, Legendary Pokemon like Celebi are sentient, so murdering them (see the Iron Masked Marauder and especially Pokemon Hunter J, though I think Iron Mask was cut, wasn't he?) is considered exceptionally heinous. If the animals can speak and act like humans, I think that could be grounds to keep this character. As much as I hate animal cruelty, unless it's like that, they don't count.

Edit: Ignore the above. I just checked. He's still there.

edited 8th Apr '15 5:59:33 PM by Klavice

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#38182: Apr 8th 2015 at 6:02:35 PM

@ Klavice: The animals in this film are portrayed in a way similar to that of the animals in the live action 101 Dalmations films. That is to say, they show more intellect and such than real life animals do, but they don't talk. Joe is a 16 ft tall gorilla with a level of sentience similar to that of King Kong. In fact, I think King Kong is a good idea of how sentient Joe is.

edited 8th Apr '15 6:04:03 PM by bobg

jjj
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#38183: Apr 8th 2015 at 6:21:35 PM

I'll be proposing another Creepypasta candidate, and he is from How I Escaped from a Cult [1]. Pretty much, this Creepypasta is about a young man who escaped from a cult that he spent a majority of his life in. I'll be proposing the cult leader, Charlie Stocke.

Who is he?

He was a self-proclaimed prophet who seceded from a previous cult and established a new one known as the Third Reincarnation of the King, or TRK, for short. He also claimed that he was the third reincarnation of Christ, and that he would lead his followers to paradise. It turns out to be anything but.

What has he done?

He would put several of his followers onto the "prayer list" which essentially means that they were separated from their families, and he would starve several of his followers into submission. He later tried to condemn a married couple to death because they tried to escape the cult, and he personally murdered the protagonist's father when he refused to execute the couple. The protagonist's mother also ends up dying, but she was murdered by one of Stocke's Apostles rather than by his own hands. After these slayings, four more members were executed because they tried to steal food or tried to escape. Two more families were caught when they tried to escape, and nine more members of the TRK died from starvation, while others resorted to cannibalism.

Stocke later tried to orchestrate a mass suicide, but the protagonist of the Creepypasta escaped before this could happen. Stocke and the remainders of his cult were killed by being burned alive, and they were eaten by some unknown creature.

Heinous in-story?

He is the leader of the cult, and he is the worst member of it. He was power-hungry and sadistic, as shown in the scene in which he slammed a large stone on the protagonist's father's head, and it's ultimately shown that he was only in it for himself. It's also shown that he didn't even believe in the crap that he was telling his followers, thus making him a hypocrite.

Conclusion

I believe he counts. Thoughts?

edited 10th Apr '15 10:06:32 AM by AustinDR

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#38184: Apr 8th 2015 at 6:54:50 PM

Then he might actually be a keep then.

Also for those who are going to propose Ghetsis from the manga (even though his story arc isn't over), he has a lot to live up to. Let's talk about what other antagonists have done.

Maxie: Killed Norman (then burned his corpse) in front of Ruby's eyes and made him watch, then tried to kill Ruby, along with his "awaken Groudon to expand the landmass" policy. He'd probably be more of a Knight Templar than a WIE in this case, since he doesn't seem to care about humans.

Team Flare/Lysandre (the arc is out in Japan): They destroy the protagonists' hometown and again try to destroy the world with a giant weapon similar to in game.

Ice Mask/Pryce: Kidnaps children to be forced to work for him, (child slave labor) brainwashes a group of criminals, funds a program that forces evolution (which is implied to be painful), and attempts to murder 2 minors. And he's supposed to be an anti villain...

Let's just say Ghetsis has to do quite a bit to stand out. (I haven't read the end of the B/W arc I only know he gets off scot-free.} And from what I've heard, while he is more heinous than his game incarnation, everyone else goes above and beyond.

Also, [tup] to the above example. Sounds like an evil cult done right.

edited 8th Apr '15 6:58:02 PM by Klavice

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#38185: Apr 8th 2015 at 7:32:35 PM

[up] I don't think he was being proposed because he CANNOT be proposed yet - the Gen 5 based arc isn't over until the BW 2 Chapter is done. It's a rule that we shouldn't seriously discuss a contender until their time is finished. If he gets even worse crimes added to his name and it's proven that he and Colress don't truly have a Villainous Friendship of any kind, then he can be discussed. But for now, he's not an issue here.

edited 8th Apr '15 7:33:33 PM by ANewMan

Cakeman Since: Dec, 2012
#38186: Apr 8th 2015 at 8:24:20 PM

Any consensus on Goliath the Soothsayer?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#38187: Apr 8th 2015 at 8:32:10 PM

Maybe I missed it, but can you tell us about him more?

Cakeman Since: Dec, 2012
#38188: Apr 8th 2015 at 9:12:58 PM

As I said, he's a demon inside a soothsayer that causes horrible things to happen to those who possess him..he took the protagonist's soul and killed his friend Brad after giving him a heart attack.

The game does say that there are multiple demonic entities in there...but his catchphrase is You Are Mine...so he appears to be an independent character.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#38189: Apr 8th 2015 at 9:51:08 PM

[tdown] to the Soothsayer, [tup] to the Creepypasta example.

I see no reason to cut Strasser, and I fail to see how secretly butchering endangered animals does not go over "basic animal cruelty." That's horrendous, and this thread should stop treating animal cruelty like a second-rate crime. It's not as heinous as rape or human murder, but it's still a heinous crime, especially how Strasser is doing it, and should be measured as such. That, along with the numerous human lives he endangers (and the one he claims; accidental or not, Strasser clearly did not care) Strasser meets the heinous level.

edited 8th Apr '15 9:52:49 PM by Scraggle

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#38190: Apr 8th 2015 at 9:58:01 PM

I agree on Strasser.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#38191: Apr 9th 2015 at 2:13:44 AM

Could go either way on Strasser.
[tup]On Straw Hypocrite cult leader.
So what to do about Papa Jupiter, Secret War examples, and The Lord of Opium examples?
If there's gonna be a third Rampage film, maybe we can just wait until then to do a rewrite if necessary?

edited 9th Apr '15 2:17:35 AM by ACW

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#38192: Apr 9th 2015 at 4:59:06 AM

I absolutely agree that Strasser (and Garth, even IF he's above killing humans) is a terrible man. However, there is a difference between a character being a terrible person and a character being this trope. Many villains (even Tragic Villains) can be considered terrible people. A lot of people were opposed to Mcleach (even if I was not among them and he was voted a keep in the end). Strasser seems less bad than Mcleach, after all, Strasser never tyed a kid up and toyed with feeding them to crocodiles. Before you say I'm comparing apples to oranges, they are both poachers from Disney films. Here is a list of Strasser's evil acts:

  • Being a poacher

  • Killing Joe's mother

  • accidentally fatally injuring Ruth and refusing to help her

  • Butchering endangered animals

  • Annoying Joe with keys saying "You remember"

  • Trying to shoot Gregg

  • Trying to shoot Jill

  • Showing no concern for the people at the carnival after the fire starts.

jjj
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#38193: Apr 9th 2015 at 5:26:59 AM

I can see why Strasser should be cut but Scraggle made a good point. Animal cruelty should be treated as a horrible crime. It should not certainly push you into a CM territory but it should be a starting point at the very least. I still give a very, very tentative [tup] for Strasser. But only tentative and I could be convinced otherwise.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#38194: Apr 9th 2015 at 5:35:42 AM

Hypothetical: So if, say, Cruella de Vil (animated) had one or two (attempted) human murders on her hands, would she than be a candidate?

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#38195: Apr 9th 2015 at 6:42:02 AM

[up] I wouldn't be too sure of that. I doubt it.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#38196: Apr 9th 2015 at 6:42:40 AM

[up]But how would it be worse than Strasser?

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#38197: Apr 9th 2015 at 6:45:16 AM

@38157: I'm familiar with both works so I'll comment more tonight when I'm out of work. I'll say for now, I don't see Grune counting at all. Mumm-Ra, however, I'll do an effort post on later cause dear god it's really impressive how vile he is. I'll also say no to those Lord of Opium villains. Glass-Eye is mostly offscreen villainy, Happy Man doesn't breach the heinous standard and the good doctor has a loved one. Will comment more later.

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#38198: Apr 9th 2015 at 6:46:53 AM

It depends on which Cruella we're talking about. If the Glenn Close version had tried to outright murder humans in addition to her poaching crimes, she'd have a chance at counting. But animated Cruella, who's taken so lightly by the work's narrative that she ends up neither dead or facing justice for her crimes, probably wouldn't.

[tup] for Strasser BTW, for reasons similar to Mcleach.

[up] It's entirely possible both Mumm-Ra and Grune could qualify.

edited 9th Apr '15 6:49:43 AM by ANewMan

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#38199: Apr 9th 2015 at 7:09:16 AM

[up]I don't recall that she was taken that lightly.

ST89 Since: Feb, 2015
#38200: Apr 9th 2015 at 7:16:04 AM

[up][up] Mumm Ra has some Pet the Dog moments if I remember correctly.


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