TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#37801: Mar 31st 2015 at 12:04:34 PM

Precisely. No different than Ian Mc Diarmid as Palpatine.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#37803: Mar 31st 2015 at 12:16:32 PM

Heck, wrestling's been called a Soap Opera for men, and we've had soap opera villains before.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#37804: Mar 31st 2015 at 12:27:22 PM

True. [tup] for Ox.

[down] That's actually pretty understandable.[tdown] for him.

edited 31st Mar '15 1:13:34 PM by AustinDR

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#37805: Mar 31st 2015 at 12:45:10 PM

What I think makes Ox an uncomfortable case is that not only are the character's victims real people who died, but that they are real people who died through a connection with the "actor".

Not only is that different than an actor playing a Complete Monster, but it's even different than an actor playing a Complete Monster whose crimes include real world atrocities (because of the fact that the actor obviously wasn't actually responsible for them).

I'm going to give a [tdown] on the grounds of disgust.

I mean if this was a different situation wherein those wrestlers didn't die (the "actors" just retired) but the storyline presented Ox as a murderer, then I'd be totaly fine with him counting. But the Reality Subtext of this example makes me really uncomfortable.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#37806: Mar 31st 2015 at 12:52:45 PM

I'm more of the opinion that two murders don't meet a minimum global standard for heinousness.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#37807: Mar 31st 2015 at 12:54:35 PM

That too, although I think it is heinous because my impression is that you don't see a lot of murders in wrestling (probably because they don't kill off "characters" regularly). Which by extension is why in this example, it was possible to attribute murders to the character, since people had actually died.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#37808: Mar 31st 2015 at 1:39:51 PM

@ ACW, well I just copied the Utrom Shredder write up from the Western Animation page, that is how it is written there. Also I just added part of a sentence, it would be pretty easy to add it in.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Ch'rell was an Utrom criminal who was imprisoned by his people for his various crimes that resulted in the deaths of millions of innocent beings. Ch'rell managed to force the transport ship he was being carried on to crash on Earth. Ch'rell escaped and took the guise of an Japanese crime boss named Oroku Saki, better known as the Shredder. Shredder wanted revenge on his people and went to great lengths to find the Utroms still on marooned Earth.

The part in bold is the only part I added in.

I would say no to Ox.

edited 31st Mar '15 1:46:32 PM by Overlord

Nithael (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#37809: Mar 31st 2015 at 1:59:56 PM

[tdown] to Pericles. The fact that he was completely normal in the reality without the Nibiru entity shows that everything bad about him came from the entity itself and not from him.

For Ox Baker: I agree that the whole thing sounds particularly tasteless, but I don't think it should change anything. Nor does the fact that it's technically a real person, because it's clear we're not talking about the actor but his character.

I agree with Fighteer though that two murders aren't enough to pass the heinousness standard, so unless Ox has more attempted murders or crimes to his name I'll vote [tdown] on him.

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#37810: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:05:42 PM

From what I understand, Ox Baker was (his real life actor Douglass Baker passed on recently so that might make this debate even MORE potentally offensive) a case of Mean Character, Nice Actor. The real life Douglass Baker (may he rest in peace) was very torn up about the deaths, and felt sorry for the two men he accidentally killed in the ring. The Ox Baker character however, was not sorry at all, and in fact bragged about the deaths and stated that he intended to use the heart punch on every next opponent. While Douglas himself was nice, his character was an asshole. The two deaths did happen in real life, but the real life person was extremely remorseful and was a very nice person. The character was an asshole who bragged about it. Aside from causing two deaths and bragging about it, the character was also a real jerk. In one interview, he said he hated his fans, and children. He said "little snot nosed kids come up and ask me for autographs and to teach them how to wrestle, Ox Baker doesn't give autographs, and he doesn't teach kids how to wrestle, now if you want me to beat your mom up, I'll do that!". Needles to say, the real person did care about his fans, and was not an asshole who hated children. So yeah, calling the character a Complete Monster would not mean calling the person one. Still, I am not sure if bragging about 2 accidental deaths and being a [[Jerkass]] is enough. He did say he intended to use the heart punch on all his following opponents however, and said "If Ox Baker knocks you down, and you don't get up, too bad.".

Edit, the character also used his heart punch on a person repeatedly even after the match was finished. Two accidental killings that he bragged about, one case of assault that could have ended in manslaughter, and being an asshole are his crimes.

edited 31st Mar '15 2:17:40 PM by bobg

jjj
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#37811: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:15:31 PM

He sounds... like an idiot. I know that pro wrestling is soap-opera in terms of its quality, but he sounds like he's trying to be children's cartoon mean: the kind of heel that makes the kids boo him rather than frightening them so badly that they have nightmares. It's ludicrous to label that a CM.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#37813: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:34:46 PM

Aside from the one time he continued to assault someone after the match ended (granted it could have ended in manslaughter) he never actually commited a crime. The two deaths were accidental (even if he did brag about it, show no remorse, and state he intended to use the heart punch on all his following opponents not caring if they died) and accidental deaths from wrestling are not considered homocides. Aside from bragging about the two deaths and saying he did not care if anyone else died, his only other act is being a dickhead. Being an asshole is not a crime.

Tally of evil actions:

  • Bragging about two accidental deaths.

  • Being an asshole.

  • Stating he did not care anyone else died in the ring with him, even continuing to use the very move that caused the deaths.

  • Continuing to assault someone after the match had ended (could have ended in manslaughter).

edited 31st Mar '15 2:44:59 PM by bobg

jjj
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#37814: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:43:19 PM

I'll repeat the general consensus and say [tdown] to both Pericles and Ox.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#37815: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:45:25 PM

After hearing more about Ox, sounds like a basic Heel with the addition of playing up those actual deaths as part of his character. So, [tdown]

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#37816: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:58:02 PM

To be fair, bragging about the deaths, continuing to use the move that caused said deaths, stating that he did not care if anyone else died, and in one case continuing to assault someone using the move after the match had ended does make him a bit more than an average heel. Aside from those moments though, he's just a typical heel trying to be cartoon mean.

On a related note, since the actor died recently, does anyone want to say something on his behalf? I think the promoters were kind of dickish making his character brag about the deaths when the person was torn up about it.

edited 31st Mar '15 3:02:33 PM by bobg

jjj
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#37817: Mar 31st 2015 at 3:08:26 PM

RE: Ox Baker

As the guy who cut everyone on the wrestling subpage except for Ox and Jake the Snake, I thought I should weigh in. The real Douglas Baker did not kill anybody, and the entire "murderer" angle was not his idea, but was forced on him by management. Two opponents died (of entirely separate causes) shortly after wrestling him, and the people in charge told him that he was to act as if his finishing move, "The Heart Punch" was responsible for those deaths.

Ignoring all the real world stuff, in-story his heinousness goes beyond two deaths, because he continued to use the move that had "killed" his opponents. In-story, the idea was that The Heart Punch was a Dangerous Forbidden Technique and that in continuing to use it, Ox risked killing every person he ever wrestled against. That nobody else did die from it was played as a miracle, and one that his opponents should be very grateful for.

Under those circumstances, I have no particular issue with Ox staying up. He's about as bad a pro-wrestling heel can get, given the inherent limitations of the genre. That said, I also have no real issues with his being cut either. If he does get cut, however, then we're also going to have to cut Jake the Snake, because Ox outdoes him in terms of bodycount both achieved and attempted. If Ox isn't heinous enough, then Jake isn't either.

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#37818: Mar 31st 2015 at 3:11:42 PM

[up] Uhh... Jake was cut long ago. He had a Heel–Face Turn.

jjj
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#37819: Mar 31st 2015 at 3:15:55 PM

And believe me, I HATED cutting Jake, but he did indeed have a face turn.
Thanks Overlord. I think I'll work on that tomorrow.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#37820: Mar 31st 2015 at 3:20:56 PM

No on Ox. Not heinous enough.

That, and I agree the script writers only have made it worse, but that's not really relevant to our actual additions of the article. I feel for him, though, as the person. The character is blatantly a dick, but not enough of one, and since the actor is dead, he ain't going to be able to meet the heinous standard. The personality is enough, sure.

Shadow?
bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#37821: Mar 31st 2015 at 3:23:01 PM

So, in universe, the Ox persona accidentaly killed two people, bagged about their deaths, and continued to use the Dangerous Forbidden Technique that caused the deaths in EVERY match after, not caring if someone died, and on one occasion, he even repeatedly assaulted someone with it after the match ended? Well when you put I like THAT he may just be a keeper. I am on the fence.

jjj
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#37822: Mar 31st 2015 at 3:30:44 PM

RE: Jake the Snake

Hadn't realised we'd cut him. I remember the original discussion about wrestling when he went up (with a new rewrite), but I didn't recall removing him.

[up]Yes. He continued to use it in every match as his ultimate finishing move, thus "risking the life" of everybody he fought against. Also, only the first death was "accidental"; in-universe the second one was "deliberate".

edited 31st Mar '15 3:31:28 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#37823: Mar 31st 2015 at 3:39:50 PM

[up] The second one was deliberate? If that's the case, what was the in universe explanation for why he was not arrested for murder?

jjj
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#37825: Mar 31st 2015 at 3:43:51 PM

[up][up]That's a great question, and one that you would think would be answered...but it's professional wrestling. Might as well as why Jake the Snake wasn't arrested to sicking cobras on people.

edited 31st Mar '15 3:44:01 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar


Total posts: 326,048
Top