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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#37376: Mar 21st 2015 at 3:51:51 PM

I don't particularly mind the ancestors thing with Monique, but while nasty, she's a wee bit limited in body count and nastiness next to Klaus.

Now, okay, at the latter stretch of episodes, Klaus has kinda chilled out a bit (kinda), but he's still a ruthless serial killer who's been shown gleefully murdering dozens of people. It's like Angelus being the show's protagonist practically.

Good rewrite for Joff too.

edited 21st Mar '15 3:52:13 PM by Lightysnake

Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#37377: Mar 21st 2015 at 3:53:13 PM

Speaking of GoT, are we going to add Ramsay's crimes from the TellTale game somewhere on the page after it's done?

edited 21st Mar '15 3:54:50 PM by Camberf

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#37378: Mar 21st 2015 at 4:02:29 PM

Aren't the games a different canon ?

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#37379: Mar 21st 2015 at 4:08:34 PM

Attempting to kill a child is pretty heinous in my eyes.

And it's not harmless freezing in this case. If you talk to the Zoras after freeing them from their icy prison, theu are gasping for air as though they were very close to death. If Link didn't make it there in time, they WOULD have died.

And we cannot forget about the insects of Twilight which try to attack people (especially prevalent in Kakariko Village) and set buildings on fire. (Though to be far the latter was becauwe it hid in the fireplace.)

But still, if Link didn't save the day, Zant would have plenty more victims.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#37382: Mar 21st 2015 at 4:54:08 PM

So unless we are done talking Vampire Diaries-verse CM's, anyone rethinking Monique ? As for the morality of both shows, it's got me thinking of Breaking Bad, Scarface and even Greek Mythology. For what it's worth, Vampire Diaries / The Originals CM's we have so far have these in common - willingness to kill children and disregard, even murder, of family - which is why Kai is still on my watch list, hell the only thing keeping him from being an Omnicidal Maniac is when his brothers soul merged with his (We can cross that bridge when we get to it).

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#37383: Mar 21st 2015 at 6:11:54 PM

[up]Again, I'm not willing to upvote any of the ones currently under discussion. Not after what the series is willing to accept from the "heroes".

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#37385: Mar 21st 2015 at 7:25:10 PM

See post 37367 on the previous page.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#37386: Mar 21st 2015 at 7:38:57 PM

The heroes of the vampire diaries have a lot of blood on their hands themselves, in addition to occasional jerkass behavior. As of a few weeks ago, every vampire protagonist on this show has flipped their humanity switch off which took their ability to feel empathty or remorse, and when they do, they tend to get careless and hunt innocent people. When they turn the switch back on, they get hit with a brick load of remorse which often tempts them to turn it back off. Why do they do this ? Well on this show, when you turn into a vampire, your emotions and personality get amplified see, so your more subjectable to crippling remorse that tempts you to turn the switch and let loose.

Damon - became a mass murderer. Had a brief relationship with Caroline, and when she discovered he was a vampire she freaks out and he hypnotizes her to not be afraid and they end up having sex - yes it counts as rape, but not even she calls him out on it (the subject is notorious argument on the fanbase on weather they are RTDE him or DILP him).

Stefan - without his humanity he becomes a serial killer himself. Worked as Klaus's dragon briefly. Had a bad habit of tearing his victims to pieces.

Elena - Mostly was just rude and violent personality. She killed people when either Stefan or Damon tried to get control of her. She even allows herself to get tortured just to spite them. She suffers a pretty big Heroic BSoD when her humanity snaps back on.

Caroline - Acted out following her mother funeral. She hooks up with a med student, and briefly feeds on him before hypnotizing him to be a servant to her. When she learns Stefan and Elena are trying to get her to switch back on, she forces the med student to try to surjectly kill Stefan's college student niece, before Elena knocks him unconscious. She then forces Stefan to turn off his own humanity.

It should be noted without their humanitys, these protagonists are not treated as heroes, but villainous forces that must be conquered. That said, the vampire protagonists have a list of sins that can't be excused by the humanity switch, because their humanity was one for these sins.

Elena - Killed one of the Original vampires, Finn, which wiped out his bloodline. Mind you, she didn't know what would happen at the time and that's how they found out. In season four, she and her brother Jeremy kill another Original, Kol. Mind you it was in self defence, but the only time the story acknowledges the following deaths it was when it served a purpose (long story)

Damon - He had a vendetta against the Whitmoore family because one of them experimentally tortured him. His method of revenge was killing the family every generation, and letting one life to continue the cycle. It only ended when his friend Enzo (evil Damon 2.0) persuaded him to turn his humanity off and kill the last Whitmoore - a college student who Elena befriended.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#37387: Mar 21st 2015 at 7:57:55 PM

[up][up] ...why does "sympathetic vampires" seem like such a hard premise to do right?

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#37388: Mar 21st 2015 at 8:03:30 PM

[up] Yeah, can't they just get blood donations, go to blood banks, feed on dangerous animals, and take artificial blood?

jjj
rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
The Wanderer
#37389: Mar 21st 2015 at 9:29:01 PM

The impression I've gotten is that people consider that uninteresting.

Hugging a Vanillite will give you frostbite.
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#37390: Mar 21st 2015 at 9:38:40 PM

[up][up] Or sparkle?

I'm not casting a vote for any Originals villains sans Markos (keeper), due to unfamiliarity with the show and a heinousness level that's far too imbalanced for my liking.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#37391: Mar 21st 2015 at 9:47:41 PM

Not giving a yes to anyone from the series, thanks very much. And honestly, when it comes to the hypnosis thing? I don't care if the series doesn't call it rape, I don't care if the characters don't call it rape. It's rape; end of discussion.

toonyloon Since: Jul, 2011
#37392: Mar 21st 2015 at 9:48:02 PM

I kinda like the rewrite for Joffrey.

Also, I'm actually a bit surprised that it took this long for Andross to be discussed.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#37393: Mar 21st 2015 at 9:52:25 PM

I'm fine keeping Francesca. She has a big body count, a larger attempted bodycount, and she compares solidly to freaking Klaus and then some.

However, with Mikael's crimes...umm...yeah, it's gonna be hard to count.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#37394: Mar 22nd 2015 at 12:32:34 AM

Andross was brought up before. In fact, I think he used to be on the page. But I said he was too generic and nearly everyone at the time agreed with me. This is only having played Starfox Adventures and knowing very little about the Starfox backstory.

Either way, looks like Andross is a unanimous keep now, so we should give him a write up. Lighty, since you seem to be the most familiar with Starfox 64, I think you should be able to do it. Or I could try with the information given.

edited 22nd Mar '15 12:33:05 AM by Klavice

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#37395: Mar 22nd 2015 at 2:56:36 AM

Like the Joffrey rewrite (just replace the Self-Made Orphan pothole with Matricide). I can submit it tomorrow with the other batch.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#37396: Mar 22nd 2015 at 5:50:56 AM

I've been thinking of another potential Buffyverse example, from the comics. Hypothetically, do any of you think a sentient dimension can have a shot ? In the "Season eight" comics, the Big Bad was an entity called Twilight (before you ask, it's not a Take That! on that ''Twilight) which represents the sentience of a dimension that seeks to be "born" by destroying our universe to pave way for itself. I'm reluctant to bring him to the discussion board because it can be argued it's doing what's necessary for its survival.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#37397: Mar 22nd 2015 at 9:24:03 AM

The taboo of kin killing means little to Joffrey either, as he threatened to execute his mother for slapping him, tried to have his uncle Tyrion assassinated, and had his bastard siblings (including children and babies) butchered so no one would notice how little Joffrey resembled his supposed father, Robert Baratheon.

edited 23rd Mar '15 12:08:41 PM by ACW

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#37398: Mar 22nd 2015 at 11:38:54 AM

I think Buffy has enough Complete Monsters honestly. 3-4 is usually enough for most works and this villain looks too generic. Not to mention I don't think it meets the heinous stanDard.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#37399: Mar 22nd 2015 at 11:43:35 AM

I'd say no on Twilight. It's far too unfathomable as a being in of itself.

  • Bates Motel
    • Corrupt Cop Zach Shelby seems at first a charming, likable guy who wants to help Norma Bates and her family out. It is soon revealed Shelby is a deadly, violent man who participates in a sex slave operation under the direction of Jake Abernathy. Shelby keeps an Asian Sex Slave named Jiao locked in terrible conditions in his basement where he regularly rapes her, and when he discovers the Bates family have helped her escaped he attempts to murder them all. When he sees Jiao again, he tries to murder her as well, presumably succeeding before he forces Norma, Norman and Dylan Bates into the Hotel so he can kill them before Dylan turns the tables on him.
    • Jake Abernathy, AKA Joe Fioretti, the boss of the sex slave trade, operates his business out of several towns and supplies some of his subordinates with girls as a special compensation. When he learns the operation in White Falls is compromised, Abernathy begins to stalk Norma Bates and threaten her to get the money he believes she has. When he is confronted by Sheriff Romero, Abernathy attempts to establish a new partnership with him to continue the slavery business and keep it going in White Falls.

edited 22nd Mar '15 11:48:01 AM by Lightysnake

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#37400: Mar 22nd 2015 at 12:02:21 PM

Alright, so since there are not much [tup] for my proposal (count me in and it's 2) on 37368 but not a single [tdown], I guess it's good to go?

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian

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