During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Yeah, I second all that. Just cut the School Days stuff.
I did research on Bahamut Gilles de Rais. he's a Serial Killer who manipulated a whole war between factions so he could see the revival of the dragon god Bahamut and have it cause the apocalypse For the Evulz
Yep. Keeper.
So I browsed across some of the posts over the past few days, and I've noticed that a Generic Doomsday Villain doesn't count as being a CM. Does that mean Mephiles should be struck from the list since he basically wanted to destroy the world (and time itself) just for fun?
If I'm bringing up a subject that's already been discussed long ago, then disregard this post.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.Mephiles has an immense personality(and is in fact the brains of Solaris), so he really isn't that trope anyway. He manipulates Silver and uses his time powers to outright kill Sonic just to unleash Solaris' power.
Going to have to disagree here. He is a pretty vibrant character for someone who wears black.
Shadow?@ Camberf: Yeah, you make a good case with that additional information.
for Redjac.
Catching up: For Herzog, where is the Black Comedy expressed in those movies? It'd be difficult to put him up if his crimes were played as Bloody Hilarious Dead Baby Comedy. Otherwise he sounds like a keep.
For Ryan Gaerity, I'll go keep for now; that doesn't really sound like a redeeming trait if he's noticeably grinning afterwards.
No on the Host; I doubt there are any more from that series besides the three confirmed keeps, given Lightysnake's apparent familiarity with all of them. Maybe Revelations could be argued to be a seperate continuity, but no idea if anyone from that is bad enough or if someone here has tried to torture themselves by subjecting themselves to it. Pinhead from the fourth film may be worth discussing-that movie uses a Broad Strokes continuity which is rather vague about the notion if Pinhead is still the Made of Evil Pinhead Unbound from the third one, considering Captain Spencer was re-integrated into him yet Pinhead still wants to plunge the world into hell with seemingly full agency.
Definite no on Soran; he loved his family and is willing to blow up planets to get them back.
Dr. Garcia: Sounds too much like a Generic Doomsday Villain, no to him.
Here are new write-ups for the previously upvoted candidates I brought up, and one rewrite for Timecop.
- Timecop: U.S. Senator Aaron McComb is a corrupt politician who dreams of becoming a plutocratic despot. He's quick to abuse time travel for his own purposes, initially using it for financial interest schemes. He threatens his agents with erasing them and their entire families from existence, forcing them to kill themselves if the time agency tracks them down. He shoots one of his old business partners to give his past self the guy's tech company and rewrites history so that he completely controls time travel. He blackmails a time agent to become his mole against Agent Jack Walker by again threatening to erase her family, then kills her anyway to tie up all loose ends and frames Walker when he goes back to save her. After having arranged several failed hits on Walker directly, he sends his goons back in the past to murder the younger Walker and his wife by blowing them both up in their home.
- Running Scared: Dez and Edele are a wealthy couple who use their free time to abduct, molest, and murder children. They've converted their spacious apartment into a dual playing ground to distract the children and a killing lair. They've also built an immense child pornography collection out of the victims before they killed them. They kidnap Oleg along with two other children, then tie up Oleg and wrap his head in plastic to suffocate him when he proves too much trouble. Teresa arrives to rescue Oleg and the other two abducted children, and is horrified to discover the couple's killing tools and a cabinet containing dozens of videotapes marked with children's names. As a stand-in for the Witch from Hansel and Gretel, their choice in victims makes them stand out by far as the most depraved villains in a crime-ridden setting.
- Ripper: The Ripper is a serial killer who feels inspired by the original Jack the Ripper. S/he uses the computer technology of 2047 to make the many murders in New York City untraceable and as graphic as possible, using a form of bio-engineering to raise the victim's internal pressure to the point that their organs explode. When Catherine Powell tracks him down, he sends her into a coma. Throughout the game he conceals his true identity, frequently calling up the protagonist to boast about his work. While one of the four possible identities of the Ripper in the different endings has a redeeming motive, the other three have no excuse and seem to engage in these crimes simply for the fun of it, claiming to have been "born to rip lives to shreds".
- Gothika: Dr. Douglas Grey and Sherrif Ryan are two sadistic serial killers and rapists who have destroyed countless lives for their depraved gratification. When Doug killed his first victim when he was 16, Ryan eagerly participated. They used the basement of a nearby cabin to keep their female victims alive for weeks, raping them repeatedly before finally killing them. They also used Doug's position as the warden of a mental asylum to rape the inmates there, knowing that nobody would believe them. Doug and Ryan seemed to get off not only on the rapes but the power it gave them over their victims, with both noting that it made them feel like gods.
edited 23rd Feb '15 11:52:14 AM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"Yuuka Kazami from Imperfect Metamorphosis is listed on Fan Works but her YMMV entry said "She shows genuine affection and care for Team 9 and Elly, but for everyone else..."
Furthermore, on the main page she has a long list under Even Evil Has Standards.
Since she has loved ones and standards, Yuuka is a definite cut.
I feel like I have to bring up Clinch from A Million Ways To Die Inthe West again. Discussion sort of stalled out on whether he could count because the movie is parodic. Considering since then Frieza from Dragon Ball Abridged was considered, I feel like that rings a bit hollow.
The movie presents the West as basically a Crapsack World, and yet he's still considered particularly heinous. He's The Dreaded and while most deaths on-screen are played for laughs, his murders are played completely straight. Also, he's not played for laughs at all. There's only two gags involving him, one being done over his unconscious body (which later has a very dark callback) and once over his dead body.
What has he done? His Establishing Character Moment has him rob a prospector over a single nugget of gold. He forces the old man into a gun duel for it, and even though the old guy is hopelessly outclassed (his hands shake so much he can't even hold the gun) Clinch shoots him on "2", cheating in an already hopelessly unfair match. He's The Dreaded to the point that even in this Crapsack World, people cower from him simply being in the town. When he finds out someone kissed his wife, he starts killing townspeople at random until he finds out who it was. Also, he married her when she was nine.
Is he heinous by the story's standards? Absolutely. The movie establishes that a life is hardly worth a damn and people die left and right for laughs, but his murders are played totally straight. As established, he's The Dreaded and a Knight of Cerebus. The Disc-One Final Boss from earlier in the movie was played for laughs entirely, but Clinch isn't. In a setting where everyone is Conditioned to Accept Horror, he's still terrifying.
Any redeeming factors? The closest thing to a redeeming factor is that his wife is a good person. However, he views her more as property than anything else, and married her at the age of nine. The nicest thing that can be said about their relationship is that he waited a year before having sex with her.
Conclusion I personally think he qualifies. Like I said before, conversation stalled out as to whether someone could qualify from the work, but I think the way he's portrayed makes him a viable candidate.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.It's Witch Of The Absolute ban evading (and they keep wonking about Turbo); I've banned them again.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanAnd then they almost immediately made a new sock, which promptly got banned.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.He P Med me too and said Taisuke counted. Didn't know who it was so I didn't respond.
Can't the mods just IP ban him if he's that much of a troublemaker? I've seen other communities do that. It's an easy thing to do. Or is that function only for admins?
But yeah from the looks of it, Taisuke is getting cut. Which is good because I don't think he even remotely meets the heinous standard compared to the protagonist, Makoto who has raped every girl in high school and even a few guys.
I'll keep an eye out for other examples like that, ones that are in a universe full of Jerkasses or have a Freudian Excuse.
Looking at the current list, I think we should take another look at Anton Bartok from The Fly II. I had previously rewritten him, but putting his crimes in context I'm starting to doubt if he meets the heinous standard. Current entry:
- The Fly II: Dr. Anton Bartok is a corrupt technology business magnate who will do absolutely anything for money and power. Veronica, Seth Brundle's lover from the previous film, has been implanted with Seth's mutated offspring. Bartok lies to her and Stathis about the incredible danger, and she dies during the birth. He keeps the seemingly normal infant, now named Martin, as a test subject until his mutations will reappear. He presents himself as a fatherly figure to Martin while manipulating him for his own ends. He uses a lab dog that Martin grew attached to for the telepod experiments, and when the experiment fails, he keeps the mutated creature alive in agony for years for further study. When Martin grows up at an accelerated rate he gives Martin a private home for himself and allows him to make some human contacts, but installs secret surveillance to continue observing him. He wants to use Martin's unique physiology to control the morpology of all life on Earth and make his company truly hegemonic
I think what may make Bartok appear worse is that he's a Bitch in Sheep's Clothing who presents himself as a kindly man throughout the film before he reveals his lack of scruples and true purpose to Martin. It's that element of betrayal that makes you truly loathe the man, but very few of his crimes actually stand out by CM-standards.
- He is definitely culpable in letting Veronica Quaife die-maybe he didn't intend it, as it's unclear if he knew exactly what would happen (remember, mutant fly-baby), but he makes no attempt to save Veronica during her delivery and coldly watches on.
- The dog thing is cruel, but it's to a non-sentient lifeform; we generally treat animal cruelty on a different level from violence against humans.
- Giving his company access to the morphology of all life on Earth is pretty badly explained and seems more of a standard Take Over the World plan. If he intends to mutate people against their will or something, it's never mentioned.
- Manipulating Martin is also bad, but how much is Martin's eventual transformation on him? He was already born with the insect genes no matter what Bartok did, and Bartok simply waited until he could use him. If studying/extracting adult Martin's DNA after he transformed would be fatal for him is left unstated, but Bartok doesn't attempt to outright kill him until Martinfly actually attacks him in the climax. In fact, Martin himself kills quite a few people in his fly shape (whether those mooks were guilty or innocent is left in the air) despite remaining completely in control of his human faculties.
So in short: A Bitch in Sheep's Clothing with one kill, maybe two if you're being really generous, a great deal of personal manipulation, one case of animal cruelty, and a Take Over the World plan. Compared to the genociders, rapists, and serial killers we've qualified? I don't think it's enough, just another example of an irredeemable villain who ultimately doesn't meet the bar.
edited 23rd Feb '15 2:28:21 PM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"Morganthaler: Not to sure about Bartok either. On one hand, he doesn't meet the bar with other CM's , but I'd say he set the heinous standard in the story - he sees his men as expendable, tricked a woman into giving birth to a mutant baby, and the animal cruelty was especially harsh when you remember that he told Martin that the dog didn't suffer and was put to sleep, so he knew what he was doing was inhumane. I don't remember taking over the world being part of his plan, just sacrificing innocents For Science!, much like Dr. Meddows. I don't know - again he doesn't have a high kill count, or even a direct one for that matter and inflicts And I Must Scream on one being - the dog, and was just a plain old cold hearted bastard about it. He's certainly cruel and irredeemable, with some heinous actions under his belt, so if he is a keep I'd say he is pretty soft CM, but I've seen weaker villains in that category. I have the movie so I think I should re-watch the movie and get back on that.
edited 23rd Feb '15 2:30:31 PM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."Yeah, I'm not sure if Bartok can even be called out on trying to Take Over the World, per se. I figured that was his goal with trying to "control the morphology of all life on Earth" (which basically means being able to shape the world In Their Own Image), but he never elaborates on what that means or what he will do in practice. I suppose the closest analogue one could think of is a MegaCorp gaining control over every energy source in the world-selfish and oligarchic sure, but we've always placed the minimum of heinousness at "hurting people"-taking power by itself is something virtually every villain does. It's just another point against him.
Dr. Meddows I would (and did) definitely place in this category. The movie he's in makes it all too clear that he'll kill everyone in the town for his experiment.
Oh, and by the way, someone apparently added the 1988 Blob itself to that movie's YMMV page. Don't think I need to explain why it doesn't count.
edited 23rd Feb '15 2:55:06 PM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"I assume you already got rid of the Blob's "entry".
I've been rewatching The Fly II and with regards of Bartok planning on using Martin's physiology to control the morpology of all life on Earth, I have this quote that should make his plan a little clearer.
"You're the pattern and the prototype for a whole new age of biological exploration. With you as the model and the telepods as the tool, Bartok Industries will control the form and function of all life on Earth."
Also if we end up cutting Bartok, I found some pretty soft examples of CM's on the Disney page in regards of Sykes and Percivel McLeech - they strike me as a generic gangster and poacher respectively and while I haven't seen The Rescuers Down Under in a decade, don't think he knew the animals he was hunting where sentient.
Also tonights episode of Gotham, we are supposed to be meeting the Doll Maker in person. Might be too early to tell or decide if he's a keep, but I'll keep ya posted.
edited 23rd Feb '15 4:03:32 PM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."

Oh wow, sounds like Anita Blake all over again.