During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Okay I didn't read the whole entry for Taisuke. It turns out he gang rapes the "girl" many times. Here's his entry.
"He finds out that there is a new "girl" that Makoto is hanging out with named Yuu and stalks "her" until it is revealed that the person that Makoto is banging is Yuki. He blackmails Yuki and forces him as his sex slave, and if he told anyone about it, he would show all the pictures in the school of the type of person he really is, effectively ruining his reputation and thus ruining Yuki's chance of getting Makoto and Kotonoha hooked up together again. He then brings his other friends in on the deal and gang bangs Yuki constantly, and, in one of the endings, it sends Yuki over the edge."
While it is pretty horrible, I think he still doesn't count because of his backstory of being raped constantly as well. And everyone in School Days (especially the protagonist) is an asshole to some degree, so he really doesn't stand out when everyone is an asshole.
edited 21st Feb '15 7:57:03 PM by Klavice
No. No it doesn't. Either way it's a disgusting crime, but someone who's been constantly raped in the past at the very least has the possible excuse of being psychologically screwed up from the trauma they've suffered. That's a completely valid Freudian Excuse explaining their behavior, even if their behavior is still horrifying.
edited 21st Feb '15 9:04:42 PM by OccasionalExister
So if someone had their parents killed when they were young, it's a valid Freudian Excuse to slaughter millions? What if Samus from Metroid wasn't just killing aliens, but actual humans and innocents. Would her excuse of having her parents eaten by Ridley be a valid excuse?
Also, I'm still waiting for the effortpost on Light so we can really get started on this debate.
edited 21st Feb '15 9:04:51 PM by Klavice
Depends how it's portrayed.
I really don't think I need to be repeating how every single work is different and context changes.
Honestly, I think the Light debate's just about done before it. We've been arguing on it plenty, and most people have overwhelmingly voted yes.
edited 21st Feb '15 9:06:18 PM by Lightysnake
And after a few days of taking a breather, I'm back. A few thoughts:
RE: Redjac
Gonna side with Morgenthaler and say no.
RE: Light
I've said yes before and I still say yes now. His bodycount vastly outstrips that of anyone else in the series.
@Klavice & bobg
While it can obviously differ from series to series, the cycle of abuse is a real life, observable phenomena, particularly among victims of physical and sexual abuse. Essentially the victim in question tries to regain their lost sense of control by dominating and victimizing others. Just as children who are beaten by their parents often become schoolyard bullies, so to do victims of sexual assault sometimes assault others in turn.
A good fictional example, and one I've come back to a few times is Robert Quarles of Justified infamy. A gangster, drug-dealer, and serial killer/rapist of male prostitutes, Quarles was victimised at an incredibly young age by his own father, who pimped him out to older men in exchange for heroin money. Quarles was "saved" by mobster Theo Tonin, who gave him a gun, told him to shoot his father, and then recruited him into his mob. To say that Quarles' attitudes towards violence and sexuality are completely broken would be an understatement, and his victimisation of young men comes off as a desperate—and insane—attempt to understand why the same thing happened to him.
RE: Grim Company
Will give a yes vote to the character Lightysnake proposed.
RE: Antimatter!Brainiac and The Wanderer
Here are write-ups for them.
- Grant Morrison's Earth-2 brought us Brainiac's Antimatter Universe counterpart. An organic syntellect who was captured by Ultraman and forced to be his slave, Brainiac schemed to not only escape his bonds, but to upgrade himself into an "Nth Level Intelligence". In order to do this he swapped a plane in the Antimatter Universe for one in the Matter Universe, killing all the passengers on both in the process, and triggering a war between the Justice League and the Crime Syndicate. While the teams were busy fighting, Brainiac set in motion a plan to merge the Matter and Antimatter Universes, a move that would have resulted in the annihilation of all reality, plotting to use the energy from the resultant explosion to complete his upgrade and become a god. Willing to destroy all life in order to better himself, Antimatter Brainiac was every bit as vile as his Matter Universe twin.
- Red Robin introduced Vitoria, alias The Wanderer. Having gained the power to kill with a touch, Vitoria murdered her mother, then went on a killing spree across South America, slaughtering people at random. When she grew bored with this, she recruited a band of likeminded Psychos For Hire and attacked the League of Assassins for sport, butchering dozens of its members in the process, and caring not a whit for any innocents who got in the way. Buried alive after her plot failed, Vitoria killed the man who rescued her, before announcing her intention of moving on from targeting assassins to targeting heroes.
How do those look?
Okay so should we vote on Taisuke? I don't think he's been discussed before and if he has, it must have been a brief "yes" with no talk of his Freudian Excuse.
I'll vote no on him
If I get the time, I'll check out Texhnolyze and see if I can improve Kano's entry.
Interestingly, most of those involved in the last Light discussion still here have changed their minds. NJ and Hodor were against his inclusion, but have now switched that.
In reverse, Shaoken voted for him, but against him later. Nocturna voted against him, while Chaotic Queen voted for him. Footsteps voted no. Ambar voted yes and has kept the yes.
Regarding a poster a few pages back who brought up Gundam: The Origin's version of Kycilia Zabi, I have a few thoughts. First off, when that was first raised a long while back, I went to the Gundam thread here and could get no confirmation from anybody that she'd been made significantly worse. Leaving that aside, I'd also question her qualifications on the basis of the heinous standard. Unless the series whitewashes Gihren—and I'm told that it does not—then most of Zeon's crimes are on him, and those crimes include the deaths of about half the human race.
I'll also note that working out where The Origin fits into continuity is a goddamn nightmare. It's supposedly just a retelling of the original show, with further backstory added, but diverges so much in terms of some people's characterization that it might be easier to call it a separate series. If people want I can raise it in the Gundam thread again.
Speaking for myself, I think my original opposition to his inclusion was because I was mostly just familiar with the anime version.

Just a few things:
Someone had asked about The Book of Life, and I responded that there were no candidates. To give some detail, there are two villains in the film- a trickster death god and the leader of some bandits (I had forgotten the latter when I responded). The death god is a definite no. He is in love with a more benevolent death goddess- It's kind of like Hates and Persephone but with a Hades who acts like Disney's Hades. As for the bandits, it seems like a clear case of Generic Doomsday Villain- Not a knock on the film- The bandits are presented as basically a malevolent force of nature and I can't even remember if their leader gets any dialogue. They really have no motives (I mean they might as well be eating the gold they steal), and are only there as an Enemy Without to drive the plot.
Fenhoff/Faustus from Agent Carter is someone to keep an eye on- we'll probably have a better idea of his motives after the next (and potentially final) episode. I'm leaning toward "no" though.
Oh, one other thing- apparently Carnage may have to go, judging from what I gather from a post in the Spider-Man thread- here it is
. Basically, in the Nova comic following AXIS, Carnage shows up at Sam/Nova's school (Sam had earlier told Carnage his real name). Carnage seeks him out and is defeated- Carnage reveals how he wanted to kill Sam out of self loathing because he wanted people to forget the Good Carnage. Carnage speaks of how he can't control himself (although he seems to want to).
I know this is a different take on Carnage than earlier (where he was cruel and murderous in a really calculated way), but it seems like maybe him being Good/not a CM might stick.