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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ShadowHog from Earth Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#35776: Feb 18th 2015 at 8:14:44 AM

Yeah, like I said, I wasn't certain the spoiler tagging job was good, but at the same time, I didn't want to completely white it out, since that is (IIRC) against spoiler tagging policy. (Even though that's exactly what we did with Zanza.)

Moon
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#35777: Feb 18th 2015 at 9:08:44 AM

Actually, now that I think about it, it may not be a bad idea to add to the FAQ something about how it doesn't matter how narmy the work is as long as the character is played seriously in-universe.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#35778: Feb 18th 2015 at 9:44:32 AM

I finished Ressha Sentai Tokkyuger.

Spoilers for finale:

Z, I feel, can't qualify. He's a little too sympathetic with elements of Tragic Villain, has a Pet the Dog moment by not murdering Grita, doesn't do anything too heinous for a Sentai villain and a smattering of other things. I had doubts he counted as I was watching and am convinced he doesn't belong here, despite doing some bad things.

edited 18th Feb '15 9:45:17 AM by PolarPhantom

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#35779: Feb 18th 2015 at 9:44:35 AM

Added something.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
KyleJacobs from DC - Southern efficiency, Northern charm Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#35780: Feb 18th 2015 at 9:55:41 AM

Potential issue with Livia Sas Junas from Final Fantasy XIV - the character page implies that she genuinely does love Gaius. I'm not far enough in the main quest line to confirm or deny, and I don't want to spoil it for myself more than I already have, but would anyone who's either finished the quest or has time to watch cutscenes on youtube please chime in?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#35781: Feb 18th 2015 at 10:34:38 AM

I'll switch my vote to [tup]Dickson.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#35782: Feb 18th 2015 at 10:58:39 AM

Anybody watches Agent Carter? After the latest episode we might have a candidate with Dr Ivchenko aka Doctor Fennhof/Faustus

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#35783: Feb 18th 2015 at 11:15:59 AM

[up] Keep an eye on the show till the season's finished, then bring it up again if it still seems to be an example.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#35785: Feb 18th 2015 at 11:30:14 AM

I'd say wait until the seasons finished. Should be a week. But I remember Ivchenko having a twisted Pet the Dog moment in last nights episode.

Speaking of superhero shows, for now I guess we can drop Reverse Flash and Gorilla Grodd from the proposal list as they seem to have a Villainous Friendship. But we might have an example in Wade Eiling, but I doubt he's heinous enough.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#35786: Feb 18th 2015 at 11:45:04 AM

RE Dr. I/Faustus, was thinking he might come up here.

Agree with waiting til next episode (and I do hope the show will be renewed another season).

The guy is a Psycho Psychologist whose main gimic is driving people to suicide and his big kick the dog moment in the episode is testing a stolen weapon by releasing it in a movie theatre- it turned out to be some kind of Hate Plague gas that caused everyone there to brutally kill each other.

On the other hand, he's shown in a flashback using his hypnotic technique to help a wounded soldier- it allows the soldier's leg to be amputated without him feeling pain. Now I guess there is the question of whether he did that out of the kindness of his heart or if this was just a different use of his powers for the same end (aiding his Soviet employers). However, he did do something good with his powers in any case.

Also, his MO of killing people is kind of... interesting. When driving people to suicide, the way he does it is by simulating a happy feeling/memory and then having them do an action that will result in their deaths. Now it is possible that he does this because it just won't work to outright order people to commit suicide, but it is interesting that his method of killing people involves them dying happily.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#35787: Feb 18th 2015 at 11:46:55 AM

Faustus?
Anyway, speaking of superhero shows, nobody from Gotham yet? Though from the character page it seems Penguin loves his mother and even Zsasz isn't pure evil...What about you-know-who?

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#35788: Feb 18th 2015 at 11:49:47 AM

His actual name isn't Faustus- that's the character's "code name" in the comics. The character in the show doesn't use the code name, but his real name is the same as the civilian identity of Dr. Faustus, and he's shown reading the play Dr. Faustus, cluing the audience in on who he is.

Also, just to clarify, he didn't now what the weapon was when he unleashed it, just that it was something that would kill people- it had been used earlier (accidentally?) on the Russian Front.

edited 18th Feb '15 11:51:20 AM by Hodor2

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#35789: Feb 18th 2015 at 11:49:50 AM

The thing with the soldier was the reason I said might. Seeing as he does the same thing to Dooley and subverts it in a very cruel manner, one could argue this as not out of kindness and simply to practice his power, or out of pragmatism.

Anyway, I agree, let's wait until the end of season, I just thought I might introduce the matter a little earlier.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#35790: Feb 18th 2015 at 11:58:22 AM

Incidentally, although he has a larger successful bodycount (although it's offscreen), I think one reason why Loki is unlikely to ever qualify is that the humans of HYDRA and Leviathan seem to be much crueler and their plans often involve murder as a goal rather than a means to an end.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#35791: Feb 18th 2015 at 11:59:41 AM

ACW: To answer your question on Gotham examples, in the latest episode we meet a potential Joker candidate - a boy named Jerome. We know he doesn't love his mother, and he killed her. Only reason he doesn't qualify yet is because he has a body count of one. His reason to doe so is - in his words - "The only thing worse than a drunken whore is a nagging drunken whore." I guess we can put Doll Maker on our look out list, we are yet to properly meet him in Gotham, but he masterminds some real heinous actions.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#35792: Feb 18th 2015 at 12:28:02 PM

@ACW I don't think Voldemort is in Gotham, friend.

And of course we have a load of scientists to discuss! Science Is Bad! We only have a few years before they unleash the Octopus Lions on the babies!

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#35793: Feb 18th 2015 at 12:28:19 PM

If Dollmaker's anything like his Arrow counterpart...
Anyway, some outstanding issues:

[nja] [lol] at Polar Phantom (though Voldy's "He Who Must Not Be Named," not "you know who".

edited 19th Feb '15 5:39:33 AM by ACW

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#35794: Feb 18th 2015 at 12:32:06 PM

Arrow!Dollmaker was just a serial killer, but Gotham!Dollmaker has more connections and resources, masterminding the mass abduction children and running a hell hole prison. I'll get into details when I'm sure he's ready.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
KyleJacobs from DC - Southern efficiency, Northern charm Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#35795: Feb 18th 2015 at 1:18:45 PM

Anyone else have thoughts on Livia?

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#35796: Feb 18th 2015 at 3:22:05 PM

Astounding no to Preston. You don't get on this list for being a jackass, and we don't go by extremely vague implications.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#35797: Feb 18th 2015 at 3:39:37 PM

[up][up]

Which Livia is being discussed?

KyleJacobs from DC - Southern efficiency, Northern charm Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#35798: Feb 18th 2015 at 4:14:42 PM

[up]Livia Sas Junius from Final Fantasy XIV. Character page seems to describe genuine love for the resident Darth Vader Clone, so I'm suggesting a cut. Not far enough in the game to confirm, though.

I can say that she shoots a soldier after he disobeys her order to cease stabbing the hell out of a corpse, though. Take that as you will.

edited 18th Feb '15 4:16:46 PM by KyleJacobs

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#35799: Feb 18th 2015 at 4:24:53 PM

@ 35779 Lightysnake,

I'm not really proposing anyone per say, so much as trying to ask a question and bring up an example to justify such a question.

In Last Alert, an evil cabal of sorts its trying to take over the world, they include a Arab dictator and terrorist leader, a Hong Kong mobster, an American Corrupt Corporate Executive and a Mad Scientist. Dr. Garcia is the Mad Scientist and when the other members of Force Projects (the cabal in question) are killed by the Guy Kazama (the hero of this game) , he essentially decides to destroy humanity with a doomsday weapon, I'm not sure if he has motive for this beyond the Evulz. I don't know if Dr. Garcia is a Generic Doomsday Villain, a badly written character or just an idiot.

His doomsday weapon takes 24 hours to launch, but he invites Guy to his base to try and stop him and then later he seems upset that Guy has shown up to kill him, which makes no sense, if you don't want the hero to interfere with your evil plan, you shouldn't tell it him. This whole group's evil plans make little sense, they kidnap the US President and try to replace him with a body double, but the fake President attacks Guy on sight, pretty well blowing his cover right away.

I don't know if such an laughably incompetent script allows for a real CM, considering its hard to make sense of the characters actions in this mess of a story.

edited 18th Feb '15 4:27:20 PM by Overlord

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#35800: Feb 18th 2015 at 4:34:54 PM

"Garcia, nobody can hire my feelings!"

Anyways yeah...honestly, if a character is played straight, we should likely consider them.


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