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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#35676: Feb 15th 2015 at 12:23:23 PM

I'm not answering silly questions like "what's with the gender switching."

The Antediluvians? Not opposed for moral reasons, but because they'd wipe out everything

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#35677: Feb 15th 2015 at 12:36:24 PM

Okay, so apparently Vykos castrated himself surprised. Only thing I can't find is why?

Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#35678: Feb 15th 2015 at 1:07:26 PM

Think over Esther, I think that we shouldn't consider self-pity as a sympathetic trait. When she runs off crying, it's entirely based on self-pity. It only supports the apparent fact that she only cares for herself. Her condition doesn't explain her actions at all. There are plenty of single men in the world, after all.

If there was a guy who tortured and murdered people on a regular basis for fun, but who was missing a leg, it wouldn't disqualify him if he felt sad that he had trouble climbing stairs.

Unless a character has a real Freudian Excuse, if they feel sympathy for nobody but themselves, then they shouldn't get any from us.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#35681: Feb 15th 2015 at 2:18:13 PM

Another fanfic example that needs to be cut:

  • Touhou fanfiction Imperfect Metamorphosis: The charming, genial Yuuka Kazami. She will (and does) kill people for mildly annoying her, enjoys "games" (i.e. brutal torture), and absolutely loves children, all because it amuses her. She is unpredictable enough to often leave people alive inexplicably, but there is a reason everyone in Gensokyo voids themselves at the mere mention of her name.

The page says that she cares for Team 9 and Elly. Easy cut.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#35682: Feb 15th 2015 at 3:07:59 PM

grinI am FINALLY done with Anime And Manga A To H and will submit Saturday morning; feel free to make changes if necessary (<de>spoiling, etc); just make sure to change the corresponding YMMV as well. Just one more issue: Yujiro Hanma. He seems like a right bastard, but:

  • "Well Done, Son" Guy: A rare mother-son example with Baki toward his mom Emi, who doesn't love him because he doesn't satisfy Yujiro's requirements.
    • Yujiro to Baki after the final battle, renounces his title as strongest man on Earth and gives it to Baki.
And from the awesome moments:
  • Yujiro handing over the title "The Strongest Creature Alive" to Baki.
  • The ending with Yujiro and Baki's epic handshake.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#35683: Feb 15th 2015 at 3:20:02 PM

I've only seen the original Baki, but reading up on it...it may seem there's something to that.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#35684: Feb 15th 2015 at 3:34:43 PM

After looking at this little bit of data from the Xenoblade wiki, I'm kind of on the fence about Dickson now.

"The two Homs work together to defeat him, Fiora releasing a huge wave of energy and Shulk leaping forward and slashing him deep across his chest. Dickson reverts to his Hom form, telling them that he is finished, and is going home. He also tells them that he "just wanted the power of a god," and that he would not be a martyr to stop them. The party turns away from him, Dunban lingering slightly, and leave to challenge Zanza. Dickson sits and takes a last cigar, saying, "Damn. How'd that kid get so strong? I ain't gonna let you see me die. I won't give you the satisfaction of victory." His voice begins to rasp, and he remembers the first time he saw Shulk in Ose Tower before finishing with, "Looks like the student finally surpassed the teacher." He smiles slightly before slumping forward, dead."

While he does say he just wanted the power of a god he does admit Shulk surpassed him. Is this enough to disqualify him though? He still seems thoroughly unrepentant and there have been times when Complete Monsters have congratulated the heroes, due to being Faux Affably Evil. He kind of reminds me of a more "polite" Light.

edited 15th Feb '15 3:41:49 PM by Klavice

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#35685: Feb 15th 2015 at 4:15:32 PM

[tdown] to Dickson. Other opinions on Rico?

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#35686: Feb 15th 2015 at 4:24:56 PM

[tdown] to Rico, Reynard, and Esther. Also, looking over it again, I think I'm gonna ask that Dickson be cut. If no one objects by the end of today, I'll remove him from YMMV. That does seem like a legitimate APV moment.

edited 15th Feb '15 4:27:40 PM by Klavice

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#35687: Feb 15th 2015 at 4:26:58 PM

I'm giving a yes to Rico and Esther in the end.

Dickson...honestly, given Mumkhar and Zanza...probably a nay. I'll do the Light writeup for the effortpost shortly

edited 15th Feb '15 4:27:35 PM by Lightysnake

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#35688: Feb 15th 2015 at 4:30:04 PM

[up] No, see the problem here isn't the fact that he fails the heinous standard. (He released Zanza and killed the hero for crying out loud, among other things.) The problem is the ending does seem to give him a legitimate APV moment which we have stated will disqualify someone from this trope regardless of how evil they are. And yet, there's the fact that he's not repentant and none of the party mourn his death (they all walk away. Dunban hesitates slightly, but that's about it).

edited 15th Feb '15 4:44:06 PM by Klavice

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#35689: Feb 15th 2015 at 4:39:09 PM

Klavice, how long have you been part of this cleanup again? Kira being mourned by people who didn't know Light means fuck all.

And no, we already considered that with Naraku

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#35690: Feb 15th 2015 at 4:43:26 PM

I'm sorry, I forgot about that. I actually read up to that point in the manga and stopped (due to lack of interest) so I not only didn't know about that, I didn't know the people didn't know him.

Also I missed the Light discussion, and it's been ages since I read Death Note, so I've forgotten quite a bit. Guess that would make me unreliable when it comes to talking about Manga!Light. I did watch the anime though recently. Going to stick with a "yes" on Manga!Light, no on Anime!Light and a definite yes on Movie!Light.

edited 15th Feb '15 4:46:27 PM by Klavice

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#35691: Feb 15th 2015 at 4:59:45 PM

The point is being mourned doesn't disqualify you.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#35692: Feb 15th 2015 at 5:05:41 PM

Heck, even being directly pitied to your face doesn't. Harry outright told Voldemort he felt sorry for him, for one.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#35693: Feb 15th 2015 at 5:18:09 PM

[tup] to Esther. Not seeing any redeeming qualities overall.

Shadow?
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#35694: Feb 15th 2015 at 5:32:59 PM

Sorry Lighty, and sorry to everyone here as well. I've been very suicidal as of late (unhappy with my appearance, and other things some of you might find vain) and little things like that kinda drive me over the edge. It's not your fault, I'm just feeling really low right now.

But if that's the case, Dickson probably does qualify, because his APV moment is just him being mourned and admitting defeat. This makes him a traitor to both Zanza and Shulk, basically meaning he serves no one but himself. It's implied that he only served Zanza to become a god of the new world, which is why he didn't mind a world ruled by Shulk. As long as he got to become a good, he's happy.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#35695: Feb 15th 2015 at 5:34:38 PM

[up] Sorry to hear about that, Klavice. sad

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#35696: Feb 15th 2015 at 6:12:18 PM

[up][up]

Very sorry to hear that. Be well.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#35698: Feb 15th 2015 at 7:07:27 PM

@Klavice: Really sorry to hear that, I hope and wish the best for you.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#35699: Feb 15th 2015 at 7:53:50 PM

I hope you'll be fine, Klavice.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#35700: Feb 15th 2015 at 8:00:29 PM

@Klavice: I'm so sorry to hear that. I hope things improve and that you stay well.


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