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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#35351: Feb 9th 2015 at 8:21:55 PM

Okay I want to challenge another King CM and this one has a lot more basis than my criticism of IT being there.

Randal Flagg. Now I know he appears i more than one book but I read through most of the Stand and while I did not finish it, the book was clear on two things:

1. Flagg doesn't even understand why he does what he does or who he is.He just popped into being and had a bunch of magical powers now, presumably because the world was full of death or because of my second point.

2. Mother Abagail repeatedly states that Flagg is nothing more than "the Devil's imp." Everyone is afraid of Flagg and he is the obvious leader of the evil group opposing them but Flagg himself is just a tool. As I mentioned in Point 1, he didn't choose to be here or anything like that, he was placed there to be the representative of Evil in the apocalyptic battle.

Flagg, even more than It, reeked of Made of Evil to me. Is there anything at all to suggest he had a choice in what he did?

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#35352: Feb 9th 2015 at 8:24:28 PM

@bobg: He runs over a few people in the street while they're singing very abruptly, and he kills Producer Man with a Gory Discretion Shot after Producer Man annoyed him with constant ranting. But Producer Man got better anyway, somehow. Other than that, a majority of the destruction he causes is taken seriously.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
bobg Since: Nov, 2012
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#35354: Feb 9th 2015 at 8:47:26 PM

Umm...the fact Flagg is a human sorcerer who sold his soul to the Crimson King? The way it works is he's sent into a world without memory initially, but soon regains it, and his malevolence.

He's not Made of Evil, and his presence in multiple King works sheds light as to what he is and why.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#35355: Feb 9th 2015 at 8:59:00 PM

See, that's what I was saying. I only read one book with him and I don't even think the CK was a concept at the time o The Stand. I figured Flagg's origin might be elaborated on in DT or some other work but I wasn't sure. I just assumed he was a blank force of evil and servant of the real evil and that's it. I was wrong. Nevermind then.

Why exactly isn't the Ck on the page then? Not enough on screen villainy? EEEEEEEEEEE

edited 9th Feb '15 9:00:34 PM by Nikkolas

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#35356: Feb 9th 2015 at 9:01:00 PM

That's...putting it mildly. The Crimson King is also the biggest anti-climax I think I have ever read.

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#35357: Feb 9th 2015 at 9:08:19 PM

[up] That's not to say creepy frail old men can't be CM's, just look at Zouken Mutuo. Of course, that doesn't apply to the Crimson King as the only thing dangerous about him was his halitosis.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#35358: Feb 9th 2015 at 9:13:32 PM

[up] I can think of at least 4 different creepy old frail Complete Monsters. Palpatine being the obvious (though just how frail he is, is very debateable), but also Quercus Alba and Manfred Von Karma (again to a certain degree of frail) and just recently, Dickson from Xenoblade, though he looks considerably younger than most of the others, looking like Hulk Hogan, but still counts.

Age does not determine whether or not you'll be a complete monster, rather it's when a character pulls off being a CM at such an old age (or a young age in Henry from Good Son's case) that really makes them stand out.

edited 9th Feb '15 9:16:06 PM by Klavice

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#35359: Feb 9th 2015 at 9:21:01 PM

[up] It was a joke about the Crimson King.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#35360: Feb 9th 2015 at 9:43:20 PM

After reading both books, I am pretty sure Mick still counts, but does anyone have any opinions on Seargeant Atkin? He was a serial rapist, helped Mick kill an entire village, and did the head on a stick thing to a man cowering in his pajamas.

jjj
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#35361: Feb 9th 2015 at 9:50:25 PM

[tup] for Mick. If anything, this just makes him an even bigger monster. [tup] for Sergeant Atkin. He's clearly nowhere near as bad as Mick, but he still counts.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#35362: Feb 10th 2015 at 12:10:46 AM

[up]Seconded.
@Lore Deluxe: Trust me, I've already tried that. Arguing about subpages doesn't get you anywhere. @RT 89: As for a Buffy Verse page, I think that's been nixed. I like the Frieza image better than what's there now.
Not a bad Dolim image.

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#35363: Feb 10th 2015 at 1:25:02 AM

@ Overlord: This one? I'd say Dolim has potential, but from that specific shot I don't think it's very clear that he's torturing him as opposed to beating up the guy.

@ Randomtroper: 6 examples for Buffy between the series and comics? I could go either way. I do agree that moving Frieza to Dragon Ball would be an improvement over the dialogue-heavy one that page has now, but you'll have to start a thread in Image Pickin'.

@ Lore Deluxe: Some of those were basically grandfathered in. There's no strict minimum number, but new work subpages generally don't get created unless there's 6 or more examples to justify one, or the entire page split alphabetically if it gets too long.

I'll echo [up][up] on Mick.

It looks like there are still some old unused redirects of work subpages that were cut and moved back to the main list: Bokurano, Hellsing, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Naruto. Save for Naruto (which has 49 inbounds), I think all of those should be added to the cutlist.

RE: Star Wars: What work should Durge be listed under?

edited 10th Feb '15 1:30:21 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#35364: Feb 10th 2015 at 5:09:51 AM

[tup] for Sergeant Atkin.

On account of the Crimson King, my understanding is he was an Omnicidal Demon, apparently the same species of Pennywise. His loss of power and sanity was pretty much a result of destroying too much of the universe, and beforehand he had a number of indirect deaths under his belt. Of course, the only book I read with the Crimson King was Insomnia, and when we meet him, he was certainly smart enough know what he was doing.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#35365: Feb 10th 2015 at 5:20:41 AM

I lied. tongue I'll work on Shark, Dickson, Gedouin, Bandos no later than this weekend.
As for Durge: several works.

[nja]Gedouin: Is his wanting to be acknowledged by Lucifer mitigating, or is it like a Bellatrix-Voldemort thing?

edited 10th Feb '15 5:28:49 AM by ACW

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#35366: Feb 10th 2015 at 5:21:46 AM

Also after last nights episode of The Originals, I've taken Finn Mikaelson off my watchlist. In it they imply he still loves his older sister, or at least trusts her. They also try to establish him as a WIE, albeit a vindictive one.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Toivoa Since: May, 2011
#35367: Feb 10th 2015 at 6:13:56 AM

Definitely a Bellatrix-Voldemort thing. Plus, the primary reason Lucifer offs him is because his experiments were conducted in violation of the organization's (and thus, Lucifer's) orders. When he intended to force Izumo to take in the Nine-Tailed Fox despite her extremely low chance of doing so successfully, Renzou straight up warned him that he may not get another chance from Lucifer if he goes through with it. Gedouin does it anyway. So his drive to get good results overrides his obedience/loyalty, like someone who makes a thousand failed attempts hoping one success would make everything forgiven. His motivation is ultimately completely self centered.

Imperator100 Since: Apr, 2012
#35368: Feb 10th 2015 at 6:50:08 AM

Anyone else care to weigh in on Nagash? I want at least three more [tup] before I do the write-up.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#35369: Feb 10th 2015 at 7:56:32 AM

I'd put Durge under comics. It's where all his evil deeds come from.

I'll give a yes to Nagash, btw.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#35370: Feb 10th 2015 at 8:01:15 AM

Glad Mick Taylor remains. Atkins seems like he could qualify.

The Crimson King, btw, is the child of Arthur Eld, a hero of legend, and a demon called the Crimson Queen. He's not like Pennywise.

Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#35371: Feb 10th 2015 at 8:40:02 AM

[tup]Nagash

Here's a potential page quote for Star Trek:

Lt. Commander Data: Clearly Mr. Fajo has no moral difficulty with my imprisonment here.
Varria: Mr. Fajo has no moral difficulties... at all.

Star Trek The Next Generation, "The Most Toys"

edited 10th Feb '15 9:04:24 AM by Camberf

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#35372: Feb 10th 2015 at 9:54:22 AM

[up]I think that edges closer to The Unfettered.

Here's an unusual example that I believe was mentioned in passing at least once: the Ripper from the 1995 FMV videogame Ripper. The game follows a series of murders committed by a Jack the Ripoff in a future NYC, who uses some sort of covert biotechprogramming to blow up people's organs remotely; some of the deaths are quite graphic.

The thing is, this game keeps the identity of the Ripper secret and randomizes the option between four possible suspects: Detective Vince Magnotta (who's leading the investigation), Doctor Clare Burton, hacker Joey Falconetti, and reporter Catherine Powell, the last one of whom is the protagonist's girlfriend and spends most of the game in a coma. Depending on the reveal this vastly changes the killer's motives. Catherine couldn't count because she's made out to be out to avenge her mother, who was accidentally killed by Magnotta, Burton, and Falconetti in the backstory. The other three are apparently involved in some sort of Love Triangle. I'm only familiar with Spoony's Let's Play of the game (where Burton was the killer, though he shows all four endings), but I only remember Magnotta coming across as obsessive and Burton as ice cold; I rather doubt it's redeeming. No idea on Falconetti, but I think out of all three of them, judging by his behavior he seemed the closest to a disqualifier.

It's a tad similar to the Zodiac situation, except unlike that work this one definitely establishes the killer's identity at the end without any ambiguity, and all but Catherine seem to do it For the Evulz. Which means figuring out who did what in which version.

edited 10th Feb '15 9:56:20 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#35373: Feb 10th 2015 at 10:18:13 AM

So this is a case where the villain is only a CM depending on the ending. Interesting.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#35374: Feb 10th 2015 at 10:20:48 AM

[up][up]Minor note: Jack the Ripoff is the name for our trope about copycat killers. It doesn't mean a Jack the Ripper expy.

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#35375: Feb 10th 2015 at 10:39:22 AM

[up] Gotcha.

Also did a read-through of the Quotes tab. For quotes, I think it's an interesting issue in terms of how much information we feel it should convey. A Complete Monster, of course, is defined as (quoting from the Laconic page, which was itself discussed here as well and then locked) "The most heinous characters played seriously with no redeeming or altruistic qualities." In other words, the character needs to have committed truly heinous crimes, be completely beyond redemption, and exhibit no sympathetic traits—all of which a quote should ideally convey.

A lot of the quotes cover only one aspect of that, either the villain just saying "I'm evil" devoid of context (which illustrates Card-Carrying Villain, though not Complete Monster) or someone else saying that (which is You Monster!, CM is about how the story treats the character), or that the villain is The Heartless or Cannot Comprehend Good. I think we should aim for quotes like the Makarov, Arkham, Gunther Lutze, or Jonathan Teatime one—which cover every part of the trope. Quotes like "I'm the worst kind of person there is." (Mobile Suit Gundam 00), "His eyes, unfathomably empty, devoid of all compassion... all humanity... No one has eyes like that... no one!" (Red Skull) "Dragovich has no fear, no conscience, no weakness." (Call of Duty: Black Ops) fall short in comparison.

Makarov, Arkham, Gunther Lutze, and Jonathan Teatime by contrast:

->"This man Makarov is fighting his own war and he has no rules. No boundaries. He doesn't flinch at torture, human trafficking, or genocide. He's not loyal to a flag or a country or any set of ideals. He trades blood for money." —>— General Shepherd, Modern Warfare 2

->"He was obsessed with becoming the Devil. So much he killed his own wife; for that he butchered innocent people, too. He's the most vile kind of creature." —>— Lady, Devil May Cry 3, about her father Arkham

->"[Gunther Lutze] was a black-uniformed strutting animal, whose function in life was to give pain, and like his colleagues of the time, he shared the one affliction most common amongst that breed known as Nazis: he walked the Earth without a heart." —>— The Narrator, The Twilight Zone, "Death's Head Revisited"

->His main problem seems to be that he sees things differently from other people, in that he sees other people as things. This gets him into a spot of trouble early on, as his assassinations often include the brutal murders of not just the target, but also their family, their servants, and very often their pets. —>— Hogfather, description of Jonathan Teatime

On the other hand, this might be too exacting. It does mean we'd probably have to cut a large amounts of quotes, which may not be worth the effort—and of course it depends on how high we want to set the criteria for quotes. Therefore I'd appreciate a lot of input on this.

edited 10th Feb '15 10:52:44 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"

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