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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#34926: Jan 28th 2015 at 3:36:27 PM

I avoid SVU like the plague—mostly because I think it's a really badly written show and the protagonists are completely unlikeable hypocrites—so I can't speak to its heinous standard, or really offer any comment on the example currently under discussion.

FallenTx Y.O.U C.A.N.T from Rio de Janeiro Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
Y.O.U C.A.N.T
#34927: Jan 28th 2015 at 3:55:51 PM

Austin called me to do the writeup of Minerva Liddell, so here is:

Minerva Liddell is the former Ace Wizard of Special Sorcery Service and later become a temporary Wizard of Deus.Ex.Machina Industries. What sets Minerva apart from others is how she only apparent motivation in life is to kill and "destroy" whatever she can, without cares if they are children. Since her goals are achieved, she would be willing to commit sexual abuse and kill until even children in front of their parents and their friends. Minerva feigns concern for SSS members before she get a scar made by Artemisia B. Ashcroft after Minerva made a cowardly act in trying to kill Cecil O'Brien, Ashley Sinclair and Leonora Sears in front of Artemisia after she lose a duel, but after 3 best friends Artemisia rebelled against Deus.Ex.Machina Industries to save Artemisia from the scientist, Edgar F. Caroll, she shows no hesitation or remorse slays them and make various types of atrocities with them alive, such as breaking their bones, crushing their skulls, and among other types of torture that she uses to make her victims suffer before she kill them. Minerva is willing to kill and torture almost everyone she meets, whether combatants or not.

(Other not so important facts about Minerva and Date A Live is that Date A Live is usually directed to audiences to +16, however, the spin-off in which she has been introduced was to audiences to +18).

Don't leave my shower. Don't leave. You know you want it.
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#34928: Jan 28th 2015 at 3:56:59 PM

[up][up] The heroes on SVU are rather designated, particularly Elliot Stabler who beat a perp nearly to death at least once, and tried to drown one instead of arresting him another time, but I don't think this affects heinousness myself.

edited 28th Jan '15 3:58:20 PM by HamburgerTime

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#34929: Jan 28th 2015 at 4:05:13 PM

@Ambar Sonof Deshar: With all due respect, you are gravely overestimating the heinous standard of SVU. Yes, Stabler is a bit of a hot head, but he and the rest of the SVU are not that flawed compared to the constant serial killers and rapists, and in some episodes they went up against real crooked cops, who at one point got a member of their own team raped. This isn't Family Guy we're talking about you know.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#34930: Jan 28th 2015 at 4:58:00 PM

[up][up]Sounds like we could be dealing with one of those works where the heroes are no saints, but the villains are REALLY bad.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#34931: Jan 28th 2015 at 5:02:27 PM

Nah, at worst they (namely Stabler) are Anti Heroes. For the most part they are pretty decent cops and good people, and when they have flaws they do face them. Recently Stabler resigned from the SVU unit out of remorse for shooting someone.

That said, any more votes on William Lewis. He's got three already and compared to the other examples he sounds like a keep, he just needs a few more votes.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#34932: Jan 28th 2015 at 5:14:23 PM

I am currently reading Wolf Creek Origin (the first of the two prequel books) with my mother ( I asked for her help determining if any of the characters qualify or if Mick is made sympathetic enough to not count,should be done within a month or so depending on how long it takes her to catch up), and while I should probably wait until I finish, one of the villains, Cutter, seems like he may count, but at one point, he gets mad wen someone tells him they have dug up his mother's grave and had sex with her corpse (likely a joke). Would this automaticly disqualify him, or should I still keep an eye on him as I read?

jjj
randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#34934: Jan 28th 2015 at 5:58:35 PM

[up][up] Those books are prequels, right? I'd think that it would not matter if he used to have a redeeming quality when he was younger, since he has none as an adult in the movie, and what matters more is whether or not he somehow has enough of an excuse for why he does the plethora of horrible things he does in the movie to disqualify him.

Besides, getting upset over an insult directed at your mother doesn't necessarily mean that you care about her, because the insult is really meant for you.

I really hope that they don't try to make him sympathetic.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#34935: Jan 28th 2015 at 6:06:41 PM

[tup]William Lewis. I rember Paireon and I bringing him up the night his 2-parter premired but we never did anything else.

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#34936: Jan 28th 2015 at 6:08:46 PM

@ Camberf, the guy who's mother was insulted was Cutter, a different character than Mick. As for Mick himself, I am 50 pages into the first book (between the two there are over 600 pages) and apparently, his sister was raped and killed by a foreigner when they were young, which could explain why he hates foreginers so much in the movies. Of course, he killed plenty of his fellow Australians too, and if that videotape in the first film is any indication, he is a child murderer himself, so I am not sure if this disqualifies him. I will know once I finish reading the two books.

jjj
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#34937: Jan 28th 2015 at 6:25:39 PM

Sigh...I would like those of you who are accusing me of questioning SVU's heinous standard to direct me to the part where I actually questioned it. I said I didn't like the show. I said that my dislike of the show stemmed from the cast being dicks whom I did not care to watch. At no point did I indicate that their behaviour impacted the heinous standard, or suggest that we shouldn't be putting anybody else up. I said I couldn't stand the program, and that I wouldn't be voting or commenting.

edited 28th Jan '15 6:26:50 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#34939: Jan 28th 2015 at 8:41:51 PM

[up] x 8. Really everything depends on the writer on how the characters in the show are portrayed, one episode one of the cops beat someone to near death and the next he is a model cop. Nothing is consistent in the show but those two who make jokes.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#34940: Jan 28th 2015 at 9:14:13 PM

Told Lightysnake this, but have been reading The Shadow Campaigns series. May or may not have a contender to discuss depending on how Book 2 turns out.

[up]If that's referring to SVU than no kidding. In one episode they're going out of their way to get a pair of guilty kids off for statutory rape and murder, in another they're trying to arrest a guy who they know has broken no laws, but whose girlfriend looks too young. Yeesh.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#34941: Jan 29th 2015 at 12:09:14 AM

If that's referring to SVU than no kidding. In one episode they're going out of their way to get a pair of guilty kids off for statutory rape and murder, in another they're trying to arrest a guy who they know has broken no laws, but whose girlfriend looks too young. Yeesh.
The hell???

edited 29th Jan '15 12:09:32 AM by ACW

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#34942: Jan 29th 2015 at 4:40:22 AM

@ Amber, did he and his girlfriend even have sex? Technicly just dating a minor is not illegal.

jjj
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#34943: Jan 29th 2015 at 4:59:41 AM

In any case here's my write up for Lewis.

  • William Lewis from seasons 14 and 15 is a serial rapist and sadistic torturer. His MO is going from state to state, kidnapping raping and torturing women for hours and even days on end under different aliases. Age means nothing to him. When he was young he watched his babysitter get raped and killed in front of him, he describes it as the best day of his life. Eventually he kidnaps Detective Olivia Benson, forces her to watch as he kills the father and rapes the mother of his defense attorney. After killing a cop and taking Benson to a house to rape her, he takes a maid and young girl hostage. When Benson turns the tables on him, he deliberately tries to provoke her to kill him. During his trial, he makes Olivia relive the experience. After his escape, he kills another cop, rapes a nurse and kidnaps a young girl. When Benson confronts him, he takes her hostage again, but becomes turned off by his initial molestations, so he decides to force her into a game of Russian Roulette.

edited 29th Jan '15 5:15:42 AM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
AngelicaPickles Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#34944: Jan 29th 2015 at 6:37:07 AM

That guy sounds like a total [tup], and Anbar, you mentioned that if I wanted to get Machinedramon added I had to provide new info, well here's some, he somehow survives his fight with Wargreymon and becomes Milleniummon. I haven't played the wanderswan games, but from what I've picked up online, he eventually travels to an alternate digiworld, digivolves to Xeedmilleniummon, and singlehandedly conquers it, the small area he hasn't already destroyed that is. In other words he causes more damage to digiworld than his former boss ever did, and unlike Spiral Mountain there's no evidence that it's undone after his defeat.

AngelicaPickles Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#34945: Jan 29th 2015 at 7:13:35 AM

While I 'm here I'd like to make a sugestion, one of the alternate titles for this trope is Irredeemable Villain, and there are plenty of characters that don't fit the "no redeeming features" criteria but are still totally irredeemable, so why not make that into a seperate trope?

edited 29th Jan '15 7:19:07 AM by AngelicaPickles

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#34946: Jan 29th 2015 at 8:06:39 AM

I don't think that would be a good idea for two reasons:

Being irredeemable could mean "no redeeming traits", but it could also mean just "too evil for/otherwise disqualified for redemption", which includes a lot of villains who aren't complete monsters.

Also, although "no redeeming qualities" is closer, there's a lot of characters that could be accurately referred to that way, but are just jerks and not at all sufficiently heinous.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#34947: Jan 29th 2015 at 8:51:20 AM

@ACW and bobg

It's not especially relevant to the current discussion, but copy and pasted from the Designated Villain page.

  • Denise in the Law And Order Special Victims Unit episode Intoxicated. Denise is the villain of the episode strictly by virtue of the fact that she's an alcoholic and wants to file statutory rape charges against her fifteen-year-old daughter Carrie's twenty-one-year old boyfriend Justin. She's also the villain because Olivia takes an immediate disdain for Denise because she identifies with Carrie. Olivia's efforts to sabotage Denise's case and then personally hiring a lawyer for Carrie so Carrie can emancipate herself from Denise are portrayed as heroic and justified, and Denise's rage and frustration are portrayed as being evil and irrational. Then when Denise is murdered and it's revealed Carrie killed her during an argument, the viewer is expected to feel nothing but sympathy for Carrie and that Denise had it coming. Most of all, in the end both Carrie and Justin get a Karma Houdini because Olivia guilt-trips Casey Novak into offering a plea deal to Carrie because she felt Denise was to blame for her own murder.
  • Several other guest characters on SVU qualify for this, often of the There Should Be a Law variety. One guy was the normal-looking boyfriend of a young woman with Turner Syndrome, who thus looked like a young child despite being legal. The detectives spend most of the episode trying to find something to nail the guy on, even hauling him into court several times, only to have all their attempts turned down by judges. We're supposed to side with them. Making it even worse is the fact that it's stated the young woman's condition will almost certainly kill her before she turns thirty, meaning this may well be the only romantic relationship she'll ever have, and our heroes are trying to ruin is simply because they, personally, are grossed out.

Here's a hint TV show—you can't say "statutory rape isn't so bad, look how well I turned out" then have the character in question try to arrest an innocent guy for appearing to commit, wait for it, statutory rape. It's not just hypocritical, but undermines the notion that you turned out well.

@Angelica Pickles

You really shouldn't be referencing a game you haven't played whose canon is iffy at best.

As for why there isn't a separate trope for irredeemable villain, it's because first off "irredeemable" is really subjective, and secondly, people would use it as a dumping ground for characters they couldn't get on this list.

edited 29th Jan '15 8:51:52 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Lunacorva Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#34949: Jan 29th 2015 at 9:27:31 AM

I think one of the villains from the Pony POV Series Nightmare Eclipse might still count as a Complete Monster

Who is Nightmare Eclipse and what has she done?

Nightmare Eclipse is the Bigger Bad of the Dark World arc, which takes place in a Bad Future where Discord won. Under Discord's rule, ponies are mass executed for using magic, beings are tortured and killed, and a lot of other bad stuff happens (if I were to list it all this would be too long). Discord seems to be the true villain at first, however, it turns out that the whole world is set in a "Groundhog Day" Loop. Nightmare Eclipse is a version of Twilight that at some point rose up and defeated Discord. Nightmare Eclipse trapped Discord in a "Groundhog Day" Loop to torture him forever. Every one thousand years, Discord (who continues to rule) is defeated by another version of Twilight and her friends after suffering horrible torture. The clock than rewinds itself and everything starts over for another thousand years. After every thousand years, Discord is tortured to death and time resets, with each time the world getting worse as Discord does more and more horrible things than he did in the last run. Discord's torture also gets progressively worse. In essence, Eclipse has trapped everyone in a "Groundhog Day" Loop where things are constantly getting worse and people are suffering with no end. Eclipse keeps resiting time so she can torture Discord more as revenge for all he did. Eclipse makes Discord get worse and worse to justify her continued torture of him, and has been doing this for several hundred million years, and every time she does so, it erases every pony alive in that timeline from existence. By the time the story takes place, the world has become a terrible place where people are constantly tortured and killed. While Discord kinda diserves it, Eclipse is keeping others trapped with him and making them suffer as well by making Discord torture them just so she can have a reason to continue his torture. Discord once tried to make a Heel–Face Turn, but she stopped that from happening by taking over his mind and body and forcing him to kill. After the heroes kill Discord, Eclipse tries to resit time again, so the heroes try to stop her. During the fight, Nightmare Eclipse sets Apple Pie ( a friend of Twilight in this world who is also a child) on fire, tortures the heroes to near death, and states how she will continue to torture Discord forever, not caring if they all have to share his suffering. During the Final Battle, Nightmare Eclipse reveals that she has five Psycho Rangers in the form of evil versions of Applejack, Rainbow Dash, Spike, Fluttershy, and Pinkie pie. Eclipse and her five Co-Dragons all try to kill the heroes (including Apple Pie, who again is a child), and torture them to near death. After an extremely long battle, they are defeated. Eclipse is assimilated into Twilight's body, and her five minions are sent to another time period/ dimension.

Does she meet the standard?

Considering she is responsible for every bad thing that happens in the story arc, yes.

Now, Nightmare Eclipse was originally cut due to having Villainous Friendship with her Co-Dragons, and I feel the need to contest this as I believe this "friendship" is completely one-sided. See, while Nightmare Eclipse might claim that she considers her Co-Dragons her friends, this is seriously undermined by the fact that she literally Mind Raped them all to the point of insanity. Precisely SO she could make them into her Co-Dragons. Essentially, Nightmare Eclipse "loves" her friends in the same way that Johan Leibert "loves" his sister. An abusive and destructive "love" that ultimately serves to benefit the abuser at the expense of their so-called "friend".

edited 29th Jan '15 9:28:21 AM by Lunacorva

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#34950: Jan 29th 2015 at 9:42:28 AM

Nightmare Eclipse sounds like a [tup]

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."

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