TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#34776: Jan 25th 2015 at 5:02:47 PM

I'm reading it quick but seeing literally nothing suggesting he does

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#34777: Jan 25th 2015 at 5:12:13 PM

I'll give a tentative [tup] to Quentin and a definite [tup] to the Butcher.

Also, I've been digging through the old literature of the world, and it turns out that some fairy tales, in other words, along the lines of those precautionary tales told to children to teach them morals in the most horrifying ways possible, might be a treasure trove for candidates. Now, I am aware that the standards during those days were much looser back then- infanticide was rampant, people killed others for reasons as minor as jealousy, and the protagonists were often unsympathetic themselves. But still, a good chunk of the villains seemed without redeeming qualities, and I have a few on my mind right now.

I'll propose the first two on my mind now, assuming they haven't been discussed: the original version of Bluebeard and the uncle from Babes in the Wood.

Bluebeard

Who is he? What has he done?

If you're not familiar with this character, this man was the Trope Maker for The Bluebeard, which is a specific type of Serial Killer who marries women, then murders them often for their dowry and personal fortune (think Barkis Bittern). Guess what Bluebeard does?

The story goes that Bluebeard is a gentlemen who a young maiden falls in love with. They are married immediately, and Bluebeard gives the maiden a ring with all the keys to the doors in his opulent mansion. However, he tells the maiden to never open one particular door. Of course, the maiden opens the forbidden door. She finds the dozens of bodies of Bluebeard's previous wives, throats slit and mounted on hooks, all of whom he murdered. Horrified, she runs off, but Bluebeard finds out she's been rummaging through the house and tries to kill her as well. The maiden escapes, and Bluebeard's fate is varied throughout the tale, but he's usually either killed or arrested.

Any mitigating factors?

Bluebeard, being a fairy tale character, is often interpreted through many different incarnations, but the archetype remains the same and his character as such is often with little variation. Aside from that, Bluebeard has essentially nothing against him.

Conclusion?

He's a greedy, Faux Affably Evil mass murderer who codified one of the most brutal types of Serial Killer ever to grace modern fiction. The original did it best and most brutally. I'm leaning to keep.

The Uncle

Who is he? What has he done?

The story goes that the parents of two children die, and the parents as such are given to the care of the uncle, who the parents (particularly the father, as the uncle of the two children is obviously the deceased father's brother) trusted the uncle enough to pass the children to their care. However, the uncle has no interest in looking to them. So, instead, he lies to the aunt that they're going to London, and has two ruffians try to kill the two kids so he can inherit the family wealth. However, one ruffian can't bring himself to kill the kids, so he kills the other and leaves the children. The children wander the woods, and eventually, starve to death. The uncle is never punished for this, and presumably gains his dead brother's wealth. Isn't this a happy ending?

Any mitigating factors?

Zero. The uncle not only tried to murder both of the kids left in his care, by doing so he also betrayed the trust of his brother who had left his children in his care. This is particularly vile because even back then, honor meant a lot, and an dishonorable act was a horrendous crime.

Conclusion?

The uncle's not symbolic of anything, he doesn't represent any moral, he's just a greedy bastard who betrayed his dead brother and had his children murdered to get rich. Even where things like fratricide and infanticide were rampant, the uncle still sticks out because of his dishonorable betrayal and the murder of both children entrusted to him.

Thoughts?

edited 25th Jan '15 5:44:43 PM by Scraggle

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#34778: Jan 25th 2015 at 5:14:50 PM

[tup] Bluebeard, tentative [tup] for Uncle.

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#34779: Jan 25th 2015 at 5:29:35 PM

Still looking for a decision on Gaul from Star Trek Online: Delta Rising.

Now that I've played the relevant missions there's one possible aspect of his character that may disqualify him: He displays some fairly major A Father to His Men tendencies, to the point where he's fully prepared to exterminate the Kobali altogether in order to rescue the Vaadwaur they're holding in stasis chambers (the Kobali have been using the contents of failed chambers, along with Vaad battlefield casualties, as reproductive stock, and the majority of the players I've talked to basically consider them Designated Heroes).

But Gaul Jumps Off The Slippery Slope in a fairly major way right after that, however: when the Player Character won't pull a Face–Heel Turn he randomly guns down a Talaxian chef to make a statement, then orders his men to massacre the rest of the Talaxians present while blaming the whole thing on the PC (and then accusing them of luring him into a trap when the Turei and USS Voyager show up as The Cavalry).

Trust me, I'm an engineer!
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#34780: Jan 25th 2015 at 6:04:56 PM

[tup] for Bluebeard and possibly the Uncle. Also, I had one more candidate from a Creepypasta to propose. She is known as "the Woman to Eat the Children", and she comes from the Creepypasta of the same name [1].

Who is she?

She goes by the name Mulier Manducare Filli, which translates out to Latin as "the Woman to Eat the Children." Mulier was a cannibal who primarily went after children. She seduces children into following her and she would then slowly torture them to death just before taking huge bites from them. She has done this thousands of times before.

She is also somehow able to perform mass hallucinations as she was somehow able to make the corpse of a hanged newsman appear on every flag in the United States.

Freudian Excuse or Redeeming Qualities?

Filli was once an orphan and it was believed that she was abandoned by her parents. The story doesn't try to make the reader pity her, however.

Heinous in story

Definitely.

Conclusions

I believe she counts. Thoughts?

edited 25th Jan '15 7:54:46 PM by AustinDR

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
holders Since: Mar, 2013
#34783: Jan 25th 2015 at 7:15:59 PM

Definite [tup] for Muriel and Bluebeard and I am on the border with the uncle. Breaking your promise is bad but doesn't quite push you over the edge. So we are left with attempted murder of two kids. That is Moral Event Horizon for sure. I think he is just barely not heinous enough. But only barely.

edited 25th Jan '15 7:19:18 PM by holders

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#34784: Jan 25th 2015 at 7:25:04 PM

I'm sure we've discussed the fairy tale Bluebeard before.

Cakeman Since: Dec, 2012
#34785: Jan 25th 2015 at 7:29:35 PM

Yes to Muriel for eating kids. [tup] They are not for munching on.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#34786: Jan 25th 2015 at 7:39:19 PM

@Scraggle

I would have no problem with Bluebeard going up, given that he's a specific character with an identifiable personality and name. "The Uncle" on the other hand, I'd say no to. While you give some details that make it sound like you have a particular story in mind, it sounds like an archetypal Evil Uncle to me, and those are a dime a dozen.

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#34787: Jan 25th 2015 at 8:06:16 PM

@ Scraggle, do you think the one thug could count too? He might not have betrayed family like the uncle did, but he was going to take part in the murder of two children for money with no remorse, and unlike the one guy, he never had a change of heart.

jjj
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#34788: Jan 25th 2015 at 8:13:36 PM

[up] Probably not. He's a hired thug with no identifiable character.

edited 25th Jan '15 8:15:47 PM by Scraggle

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#34789: Jan 25th 2015 at 8:25:08 PM

I will give the uncle a tentative [tup]. He may have a small rap sheet, but I despise traitors. Promises should be kept. And child murder is possibly the second worse crime you can commit (next to infanticide).

jjj
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#34790: Jan 25th 2015 at 9:15:47 PM

@ 34791 Star Sword25th, if you have played the Star Trek Online expansion pack, why don't you do an effort post on Gaul? I saw cut scenes of the game on youtube, he seemed upset that the Kobali were turning Vaadwaur corpses into Kobali, but later on when the Voyager crew revealed members of his inner circle were controlled by parasite, Gaul said this was a trick created by his enemies and ordered any Vaadwaur still loyal to him to kill any disbelievers among his people, so I'm not sure how much he really loves his people. If Gaul truly loves his people, then he doesn't count, but if he "loves" his people only in some twisted "master race" sort of way (while not really caring about any individual members of his race) and was mad that the Kobali insulted his honor rather then really caring about his people, he still may count. I do wonder how much he loves his people, if he was willing to sell them out to the Iconians though.

[tup] to Bluebeard and Mulier Manducare Filli.

edited 25th Jan '15 9:22:03 PM by Overlord

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#34791: Jan 25th 2015 at 11:05:21 PM

Tentative [tdown] to "the uncle." He technically doesn't even succeed in his scheme, at least in the way he planned it, and pretty much every fictional medium has characters just like that.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#34792: Jan 25th 2015 at 11:51:57 PM

Edit: Never mind, didn't see something.

[tdown] on "the uncle", I think.

edited 25th Jan '15 11:52:43 PM by nrjxll

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#34793: Jan 26th 2015 at 12:00:54 AM

[up][up]Well, succeeding is immaterial to whether they count.

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#34794: Jan 26th 2015 at 3:49:51 AM

So since someone mentioned Vampire: The Masquerade I thought I'd check out the YMMV page and found the following:

  • Sascha Vykos probably deserves a special mention here. A centuries old, genderless Tzimisce with a weird kind of god complex, he is described as making all the furniture in his mansion out of LIVING PEOPLE who are being kept alive through the power of Vicissitude, torture-raping people for shits and giggles and throwing them out when they go mad from too many disfigurements and generally being a massive dick (despite not having one). It's telling when most write-ups for his character quite frankly list his demeanor flat out as 'monster'. It's also no surprise that the rest of the Sabbat look to this nutter as a role-model.

I vote we cut Vykos. Everything listed against him is described as being the norm for all Tzimisce (the latest work-in-progress look at the clan has one of them crafting an entire tapestry out of still conscious and fully aware vampires, with each "strand" being one unique vampire). Plus, the entry as written has all the hallmarks of being back in the dark ages.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#34795: Jan 26th 2015 at 5:12:08 AM

Yes to Bluebeard, definite no to the Uncle. As said, fairy tales being used as dark cautionary tales usually have horrible people doing horrible things including: killing family members, infanticide, rape, and cannibalism. So one Uncle trying to off his brother's kids seems so bog standard for a fairy tale that I can't agree to his inclusion at all. Not sure which version of Bluebeard has dozens of dead wives, though. From what I've read they were around six or seven.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#34796: Jan 26th 2015 at 5:40:20 AM

[up][up]Ugh, don't know if he counts, but gah that writeup [tdown]

Imperator100 Since: Apr, 2012
#34797: Jan 26th 2015 at 5:51:48 AM

Would Seath the Scaleless from Dark Souls qualify? He betrayed his own kind out of petty jealousy, resulting in their genocide and near-extinction. Even after being made a Duke by Lord Gwyn and given a huge archive full of magical resources and books, he was still not satisfied, and became obsessed with gaining the immortality he was not born with. He sent out his servants, the channelers, to abduct humans so he could perform horrific experiments on them, an example being his creation of the pisacas from handmaidens. The effects of his actions are seen throughout the game, with many of the monsters you fight being a direct result of his experiments.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#34798: Jan 26th 2015 at 6:04:18 AM

Yes to Bluebeard, no to the Uncle. Likwise, I believe Blue only had about 6-7 victims. The Fairy Tale goes wife # 7 unlocks the forbidden room Bluebeard warned her not to open, and of course there are the corpses of his last victims when Bluebeard arrives back to see his wife has failed his little test. And oh so conveniently, her badass soldier brothers arrive just in the nick of time

As for Vykos...I'm gonna disagree with Shaoken here. That entry needs serious fixing, but Sascha Vykos exceeds the vast majority of her clan in cruelty and inventiveness, with a lack of care for the lives of her clan fellows that it borders on insane even by Tzimisce standards. She's so bad it reaches the point other Tzimisce are absolutely petrified of her. And when she joined in the war against the Camarilla on the US East Coast, she wastes no time in amping it up and committing rather horrific crimes. I should also note I will refer to Vykos as 'she' for sake of convenience, but terms of gender are absolutely irrelevant for her. She was born as 'Myca Vykos' in the Byzantine Empire, but altered her gender later. One character noticeably uses 'he, she, it' interchangeably for Vykos and notes 'it changes those at its will.' That...charming references to Vykos not possessing a 'dick' is certainly a reference to her self inflicted castration.

Adding to that, she diablerized her Sire, and even the Sabbat thinks that's a bit much. not only that, she endlessly absorbed and regurgitated him as a form of torture before finally draining him (diablerie in VTM, for the unclear, is an act of draining a vampire to death. It grants you the elder vampire's powers. Vampire society looks down on it, and in most circles it's punishable by death. The Sabbat, Vykos's faction, likes it but only against its enemies)

Vykos is basically a monster even by the insanely far out standards of the Tzimisce.

edited 26th Jan '15 6:16:09 AM by Lightysnake

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#34799: Jan 26th 2015 at 6:35:33 AM

Giving a [tup] to Bluebeard (with a name like that I thought he was a pirate at first). Giving a [tdown] to the uncle as well.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
forsetipurge Since: Sep, 2010
#34800: Jan 26th 2015 at 6:36:11 AM

Yo, Lightysnake, you still vote yes for Jacob Duncan?

He is the brain of the Duncan family all right. If nothing else, it's him that orders one of his ex-Huskers to run over Reacher with a truck.


Total posts: 326,048
Top