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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

forsetipurge Since: Sep, 2010
#34751: Jan 25th 2015 at 11:11:54 AM

Mostly they do everything together—everything being running an extortion racket, smuggling kids for sex trade, raping eight y/o kids and murdering those they've grown bored with—but if I have to choose it's Jacob. He's the closest thing the clan has to an authority figure.

Think of him as Jack Welker of the Aryan Brotherhood, I guess. Rotten people all, but he's the one the other people look up to.

edited 25th Jan '15 11:14:26 AM by forsetipurge

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#34752: Jan 25th 2015 at 11:24:13 AM

Bob, the Sheriff allowing someone to pick the music he wants to listen to, as he is eaten alive by a shark while Sabin mocks and ridicules him and films his death for profit is so far below Pet the Dog it's insane. Sabin is having a blat, plays some metal and tells him "if there's something you'd rather listen to while you're dying, the Sheriff takes requests!"

I don't think it should be mentioned Leigh Emerson remains at large. The fact his crimes are common knowledge years after the fact indicates he's been captured or killed.

I'll say yes to Jacob Duncan, btw.

edited 25th Jan '15 11:30:25 AM by Lightysnake

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#34754: Jan 25th 2015 at 11:56:11 AM

Ah, geez. I've read Worth Dying For and I have to [tdown] the Duncans as a group. They do care about each other. It's a twisted kind of caring, but it's there, and it's not just a sense that they are sticking together to protect themselves. They're deeply despicable, and I can't recall any redeeming factors other than that, but they do care about each other.

Additionally, if we were to pick one, rather than as a group, I'd choose Seth rather than Jacob. He's the one who beats his wife. He's the one who kidnapped and raped the local child years ago. But still, no.

edited 25th Jan '15 12:01:27 PM by Madrugada

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#34755: Jan 25th 2015 at 12:00:27 PM

[up]Well, shit, seems they may be in that 99% category.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#34756: Jan 25th 2015 at 12:06:57 PM

As a note, I'm checking out the Death Note live action film and novels soon. Stay tuned to see if there are qualifiers.

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#34757: Jan 25th 2015 at 12:10:20 PM

^^ They are. That book was one I found very hard to read. It was far more intense than I'm used to, and the Duncans are all right up there. But they aren't quite soulless enough. If they didn't care about each other, if they were just all in it for themselves, I'd thumbs-up the bunch in a heartbeat. But when Reacher sets Jasper's house on fire, Jonas runs for Jacob's house, where Jacob and Seth are, not away.

edited 25th Jan '15 12:10:41 PM by Madrugada

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#34758: Jan 25th 2015 at 12:12:07 PM

Hey, Mads, just a question: What are the indications of caring expressed from them to one another otherwiSe?

forsetipurge Since: Sep, 2010
#34759: Jan 25th 2015 at 12:13:15 PM

About caring for each other part...

It's more like they take care of each other. Like, even the toughest gangstas will try to intervene when one of their members get hurt. Would that count as they care for each other? I'd say no.

The way I see it, they stick together because if one of them gets messed, the entire business will unravel. That's why they take it very seriously when Reacher punched Seth in the face. It's a challenge to their control over the town, and they can't let the farmers get any ideas.

edited 25th Jan '15 12:21:44 PM by forsetipurge

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#34760: Jan 25th 2015 at 12:15:47 PM

I would say yes. Now, maybe they are doing it out of self-interest, but that ought to be demonstrated in work.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#34761: Jan 25th 2015 at 12:18:19 PM

If dual examples are the new thing, I looked around for some more.

edited 25th Jan '15 12:19:44 PM by randomtroper89

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#34762: Jan 25th 2015 at 12:19:26 PM

They should not be a new thing, IMO

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#34763: Jan 25th 2015 at 12:29:03 PM

I really don't want to re-read it. Not even to bolster my position that they care about each other in a twisted way. Sorry.sad

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#34764: Jan 25th 2015 at 12:31:21 PM

Ok. I'll see if my library has it so I can look at it myself. I'd like to verify before I make a yea or nay is all

forsetipurge Since: Sep, 2010
#34765: Jan 25th 2015 at 12:35:28 PM

I just took another look at Worth Dying For.

It's actually Seth that has a sort of Freudian Excuse. He was raised by some pedophile before Jacob adopted him.

.... Who, in turn, does not dissuade him from ending up becoming another pedophile when he grew up.

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#34766: Jan 25th 2015 at 12:40:11 PM

[tup] for the Butcher. Does he talk much, by the way?

Waiting to see where the Duncans discussion goes.

Here's a full breakdown on Quentin from Cube.

Who is Quentin?

Quentin is one of several people who are mysteriously trapped in a huge cubical maze composed of smaller cubical rooms, some of which are boobytrapped. Quentin (a beat cop) is joined by five other people: Worth (a nihilistic architect who partially designed the Cube), Leaven (a math student), Kazan (an autistic savant), Holloway (a compassionate but eccentric nurse), and Rennes (a renowned prison escape artist). Rennes dies early on when he misjudges one of the trapped room's sensors.

What does he do?

Quentin becomes the informal leader of the group as they try to navigate the maze to reach the outer edge. He initially seems helpful and motivates the rest to escape. He clashes with Holloway in particular, initially over petty disagreements, then later when he suggests that they leave Kazan behind to die. There is a kernel of truth to this, as Kazan does almost get Quentin killed by accidentally triggering one of the trapped rooms' sensors. Quentin eventually crosses the Moral Event Horizon when he murders Holloway by dropping her into an abyss after initially grabbing her arm. You can actually see the point where his smile turns into a cold stare as he decides that he could kill her without anyone finding out. He then takes Leaven aside and suggests to leave the others behind before he tries to rape her, but is stopped by Worth and Kazan, who also realize that he killed Holloway. He savagely beats Worth for this. The group discovers that the rooms have been shifting all this time, but find a way to reach the exit. They find a way to ditch Quentin by knocking him out, but as they stand before the exit Quentin arrives and fatally stabs Leaven and Worth before taking hold of Kazan, who tries to flee outside. Worth (fatally wounded at this point) grabs his leg when the exit room begins to shift, bisecting Quentin.

Heinous by the standards of the story?

I would say so. Out of a cast of six people (well seven, but the Alderson character dies in the opening before running into anyone) in a confined space he has three murders, one attempted murder, and one attempted rape. More people die by his hands than by the friggin' death maze, and no one else in the movie even tries to commit murder (beyond trying to leave Quentin behind for what he did) or rape, and Quentin does all this entirely of his own will. Other villainous characters in the Cube movies don't really achieve this. Continuity is shaky at best (it's almost a Thematic Series, really). There's a Psycho Party Member in each movie, but the one from Cube 2: Hypercube only resorts to cannibalism because he's actually starving to death, while the one from Cube Zero is just brainwashed and doesn't do quite as much. The third movie also has a Faux Affably Evil government enforcer, but he's just a cog in a machine.

As I've said before, his crimes aren't really necessitated by his situation either due to the subtle differences with similar character types like Xavier (Saw). He's trapped in a deadly maze and under a lot of stress sure, but he's never under immediate danger of dying. He murders Holloway purely because he dislikes her, tries to rape Leaven because he's horny, beats up Worth to cow the others back into submission after his rape attempt, and is actually hindering his own chances to escape with his cruelties. His Ax-Crazy killing spree at the end is nothing but payback after getting punished for his previous crimes.

Freudian Excuse or redeeming traits?

When questioned about his backstory, Quentin says that what keeps him going to reach the outside is to reunite with his family. After Quentin's violent nature becomes more obvious, Holloway alleges that Quentin's wife in fact left him because he has a thing for younger girls and that he's physically abusive, which he later confirms. When it seems like there's no way out anymore he does cry, but it's because he knows he's going to die, not out of concern for anyone else.

Conclusion

He's a much more 3-dimensional character than usual (as Cube is as much a Character Development drama as a horror film), but since he does so much with so little and for such petty reasons when there's nothing to necessitate it, I think he can count. Whatever kindness he shows to anyone is revealed as a front, and he loses anything redeeming by the end.

edited 25th Jan '15 12:48:16 PM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#34767: Jan 25th 2015 at 12:53:10 PM

On Seth Duncan's Freudian Excuse: The father and uncles were all part of a pedophile ring before, targeting boys rather than girls, apparently. It's strongly implied that Seth was adopted through this ring.

forsetipurge Since: Sep, 2010
#34768: Jan 25th 2015 at 1:39:59 PM

No, the Duncans like little girls.

They ended up with Seth because back then a group who like little boys were feeling some heat, and there were alliances between the interest groups, so Seth's previous guardian-cum-rapist left him with the Duncans. He never did come back, so Jacob adopted him.

...And not exactly out of charity. The exact words are that "Maybe they thought it was kind of cute, to get a son without the involvement of a real grown woman."

edited 25th Jan '15 1:42:58 PM by forsetipurge

holders Since: Mar, 2013
#34769: Jan 25th 2015 at 2:10:38 PM

[tup] For Jacob Duncan and [tdown] for Seth.

As for Quentin, well I am not sure if he is heinous enough. Murder, while bad, does not usually make one a CM. Also, I do not have evidence if he really does not care about his family.

Also, does anyone have an idea for a writeup for the Butcher?

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#34770: Jan 25th 2015 at 2:20:22 PM

Murder most certainly can qualify a character if they repeat that crime on end. And as I noted, he also has tries to rape a teenage girl. The thing about his family is something he mentions once when he's still in "inspiring leader" mode. He later admits that his wife left him because he's violent and physically abusive.

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
holders Since: Mar, 2013
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#34772: Jan 25th 2015 at 2:52:59 PM

Quentin: Several murders, 1 attempted rape...I'll give a [tup]. On the low end for the general heinousness standard, but just crosses the line enough to count.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#34773: Jan 25th 2015 at 3:06:54 PM

I concur.

I've been reading through that Jack Reacher book, and I gotta say...I'm finding no real evidence the Duncan family actually loves one another.

edited 25th Jan '15 3:09:05 PM by Lightysnake

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#34774: Jan 25th 2015 at 3:24:37 PM

[tup] to Quinten, [tup] to the Butcher and reaffirming my [tup] to the Duncan family to a [tup] for Jacob.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#34775: Jan 25th 2015 at 4:22:43 PM

[tup] Quentin. Unsure on Jacob Duncan. Does he do anything that suggests he cares for his family? You said one of the others did.


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