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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#34676: Jan 23rd 2015 at 9:57:47 PM

I don't know much about Nyarlathotep, but I do know he's the only one of the major Persona villains (himself in 1 and 2, Nyx in 3, and Izanami in 4) to be actively malevolent.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#34677: Jan 23rd 2015 at 10:01:03 PM

Shall I propose JAKOTAAAAAAAAA and the Killzone villains?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#34679: Jan 24th 2015 at 4:36:37 AM

Some New Guy: From my understanding Nyarlathotep from Persona is pretty much the same as mainstream Nyarlathotep.

Lighty: Tried looking up Jakota, but I couldn't find him. Whats he from ?

Also, no opinions on Saints Row!Satan ?

Another also, I looked over Alvarez, and see he's got at least three votes. I wrote him an entry, but I'm concerned how he compares to the original Juan Mendoza, but I think it's a issue of resources, so I'm not going to nitpick.

  • Call of Juarez: The Cartel: Antonio Alvarez is nothing but a disloyal psychopath. In his past, he was a solider serving in Viet Nam and a friend of Ben McCall and Patrick Stone, but they had a falling out when Alvarez raped and murdered a civilian. In the present, Alvarez acts as a high ranking member of the Mendoza Cartel, and a suspect of the bombings of a agency building that killed Stone and several other agents. He pays off Task Force member, Eddie Guerra to endanger key witness Jessica Stone for abduction. When the task force abducts Juan Mendoza II's son, and arranges a hostage exchange, Alvarez foil the exchange by killing both hostages. Alvarez also manipulates Mendoza, and his partner Michael Duke against eachother, starting a fire fight at the funeral. A master of self preservation, he became a federal informant to avoid having to pay for his deeds.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#34681: Jan 24th 2015 at 5:23:49 AM

A little off topic - is it just me or are all eighties action movies over the top in the macho department ?

edited 24th Jan '15 5:26:54 AM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#34682: Jan 24th 2015 at 5:30:18 AM

[up]As long as the characters are played seriously, no reason they shouldn't count (otherwise we'd have to cut quite a lot).

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#34683: Jan 24th 2015 at 5:50:56 AM

Well I know that otherwise we wouldn't have the Manos example.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Pwnisher248 Since: Dec, 2011
#34684: Jan 24th 2015 at 5:58:08 AM

Off topic, but might I ask why Christian Weston Chandler from Sonichu was cut? I do vaguely remember the discussion having something to do with the fact that he's the hero, but I can't seem to find it again. In any case, a Designated Hero can still count (Griffin from Red Zone Cuba and Bill Williamson from Rampage). I'm not proposing his re-inclusion, just wondering exactly why he was cut.

edited 24th Jan '15 5:58:46 AM by Pwnisher248

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#34685: Jan 24th 2015 at 6:02:39 AM

I guess you want this?.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#34686: Jan 24th 2015 at 6:03:28 AM

[up][up]What does Chandler do ? Does he have redeeming qualities ? I'd assume he'd have to if he was cut as a designated hero, unlike Griffin and Bill.

Edit - [up] Never mind.

edited 24th Jan '15 6:06:30 AM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Pwnisher248 Since: Dec, 2011
#34687: Jan 24th 2015 at 6:07:41 AM

[up][up] Ahh, I see.

[up] This was his entry:

I guess he was cut because the story attempted to paint him in a positive light.

AquaRegia Since: Jun, 2011
#34688: Jan 24th 2015 at 6:11:05 AM

You'd probably find something in that comic that would disqualify him. But honestly, given how that original entry was basically only there as a Take That! to the actual Chris-chan, and how that page was viciously (and rightfully) quarantined, we'd probably meet problems just trying to get it up there even if we did agree that he qualified.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#34689: Jan 24th 2015 at 6:28:29 AM

Quite simply put, he's Chris....the Butt-Monkey of the Internet.

edited 24th Jan '15 6:36:43 AM by AustinDR

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#34690: Jan 24th 2015 at 8:48:12 AM

Why does Satan want his daughter married?

edited 25th Jan '15 7:50:44 AM by ACW

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#34691: Jan 24th 2015 at 9:11:35 AM

Satan wanted either The Boss or Johnny Gat to serves as a general in his siege against heaven because of all the death and destruction they caused in the previous games and that they both fit the One-Man Army critera (a subtle example is the Boss disarming a nuke mid flight in the fourth game). If they married Satan's daughter, Satan would have the leverage to make them his general.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#34692: Jan 24th 2015 at 11:01:30 AM

I have another candidate: the primary villain Muriel from Hansel & Gretel: Witch Hunters.

Who is Muriel? What has she done?

Muriel (Famke Janssen) is the Grand Black Witch, the leader of the evil witches in the world. The story begins when a Grand White Witch married a human man and raised Hansel and Gretel, who unknowingly possessed witch blood. Muriel wanted to perform a ritual sacrifice that required the White Witch's heart to make evil witches impervious to sunlight, but her enemy was killed by a human lynch mob before she could accomplish this. As children, Hansel and Gretel killed a witch in a gingerbread house before becoming Witch Hunters as adults.

Muriel returns at this point to restart the sacrifice. With her two Co-Dragons the Horned Witch and the Redheaded Witch, she kidnaps 12 children for their Human Sacrifice. She's first seen using her Glamour before killing four hunters who were hired by Augsburg's sherrif to rescue the children, one by putting a curse on him that forces him to eat maggots, then explode when the man returns to town. When the Horned Witch is captured, Muriel and her other sister next assault the town. She sets parts of it on fire to kill the townsfolk as a distraction, and also forces a guard to kill himself with his own gun. When Hansel and Gretel later learn about their past, Muriel informs them about their mother and kidnaps Gretel to use her heart instead as the last ingredient at a Dark Sabbath. After Hansel and his Love Interest Mina (another good witch) stop her and rescue Gretel, she takes them all back to the dilapidated Gingerbread House, where she kills Mina before her final defeat.

Heinous by the standards of the story?

Certainly. Most witches are Child Eaters so they're definitely a nasty lot, but she's by far the worst witch in the story. She's their leader for one, and she goes out of her way to acquire an even higher bodycount than both her lieutenants.

Freudian Excuse or redeeming traits?

None. Her only motives seem to be power and cruelty. Her two Co-Dragons appear to be her sisters of some sort, but she shows no affection whatsoever for either of them. During an early spell she shoves the Horned Witch's hand into a fire, and doesn't even react when either of them die. She shows similar disregard for other witches, since the first thing she does when the ritual fails in the climax is to hightail it out of there and let the rest of them be killed by Hansel and Gretel.

There's also no evidence of witches being Made of Evil as they explicitly show good witches who don't use their powers for evil, and even Hansel and Gretel have a witch's blood. The movie itself seems to reject the idea of an Always Chaotic Evil species entirely, since one of Muriel's mooks is a troll named Edward who feels obliged to aid her because trolls are supposed to serve witches, but eventually turns on his evil master to save Gretel.

Conclusion?

Seems like a solid keep.

edited 24th Jan '15 11:06:18 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#34693: Jan 24th 2015 at 11:04:47 AM

Horrible movie, but she qualifies

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#34694: Jan 24th 2015 at 11:06:50 AM

[tup] for Muriel. I seen the movie and what struck me is how she turned a little boy into blood soup.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#34695: Jan 24th 2015 at 11:08:06 AM

That was my thought. Cliché Storm from beginning to end (and something of a Ham and Cheese performance from Janssen), but she meets every criterium.

edited 24th Jan '15 11:09:51 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
LordXavius Doesn't even like this username from many fandoms Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Doesn't even like this username
#34697: Jan 24th 2015 at 1:47:31 PM

[tup] for Muriel.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#34698: Jan 24th 2015 at 2:24:15 PM

Now, Jakota...

Jakota is the villain of the hysterically awesome/awful film Strike Commando set in Vietnam, about Reb Brown killing bad guys in such numbers that it would make the protagonists of Contra jealous.

Jakota is the head of the Russian forces, and the most fearsome soldier they have, who forms a mutual hatred with the hero, Mike Ransom, or as Jakota calls him, ''Americanski!' Ransom seems mostly to scream Jakota's name. A lot.

As for what Jakota does? He runs a prison camp where prisoners of war are tortured horribly for information, specifically by electrocuting them. He's also a war criminal who slaughters innocent people by the truckload. At one point, Ransom is saved by a friendly group of villagers and befriends a little boy. When Jakota learns there's even a possibility Ransom is there, he absolutely slaughters the village down to the last man, woman and child. A little boy Ransom befriended is the only survivor (and not for long). And he just wanted to go visit Disneyland. And eat the popcorn. And meet the genie to grant his wishes. In his magic lamp.

The movie is goofy as all hell (And you can watch it on youtube), but it's played dead straight (and this is part of the charm). So, torture and mass murder, with Infant Immortality averted, and not giving a damn about anyone, long with his seeming ability to teleport to arrive in plot convenient areas when Ransom is about...that's Jakota, a fine CM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#34699: Jan 24th 2015 at 2:25:25 PM

Let's see: War criminal, slaughters innocents, kills kids...[tup] How does that little boy survive (if only briefly)?

edited 24th Jan '15 2:27:20 PM by ACW

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#34700: Jan 24th 2015 at 2:27:11 PM

I really urge everyone to see this film, btw. Jakota roaring 'Americanski!' is something amazing.


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