During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
- This weekend I'll definitely work on Adam
, Dragovich
, and Julia
, and maybe AHS and Tortall. Are we in agreement to give the latter two their own subpages?
- We now have a Sandbox that combines monsters for the games and the literature of The Witcher, which is probably a good idea. When do we wanna launch that?
- Pwnisher, could you please add your writeups to American Horror Story: Freak Show?
- Speaking of AHS, Asylum has 3, Freakshow has 2. Do Coven and Murder house have any?
edited 22nd Jan '15 1:00:43 PM by ACW
For Murder House, Tate's crimes overshadow everyone else's, but he doesn't count himself.
For Coven, I think it's a case where the heinous standard is way too high for anyone to qualify. There are maybe two characters in the entire cast who don't commit murder or another crime, one of the most sympathetic character rapes someone to death in the first episode, someone slaughter almost everyone in a hair salon, newborns are sacrificed to Sata- I mean Baron Samed- I mean Papa Legba, and the real life Delphine LaLaurie
, who tortured slaves in ways that horrified other slavers of the time, was on her way to be redeemed before she was betrayed.
Edit: well how's that for the 34666th post.
edited 22nd Jan '15 1:45:07 PM by Nithael
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I made a sandbox page. Would Dandy bathing in his mother's blood be a good page image? As far as AHS villains go, there really isn't much that'd make for a better one. They're all sinister and vile, but it's surprisingly hard to get good screencaps of them doing their villainous things.
edited 22nd Jan '15 4:29:27 PM by Pwnisher248
I like the image. Also, Monster Tortall...Speaking of which, out of curiosity, why was Rubinyan disqualified? I did a search and couldn't find much.
Regarding Dandy, what's with this quote?
edited 22nd Jan '15 5:31:49 PM by ACW
Dandy has an obsession with the Tattler twins. However, it's solely as objects or possessions. He entertains a fantasy, but he has no interest in them whatsoever should they not live up to the role he's laid out. Given he ties them up and massacres their friends and abducts them to force them to marry him...when they defy him early on, he flips out on them on the spot.
Here's One Eye's write up.
Dawn of the Clans has the elderly One Eye, who, despite only appearing in The Blazing Star, has done plenty of damage. In the beginning he taunted Clear Sky about the sickness and said that many of his cats were "as good as dead". This same sickness claimed the life of Wind Runner's kit and a few other cats. Then he joins Clear Sky's group with another antagonist, Tom and immediately starts teaching killing blows to Clear Sky's group similar to the Dark Forest set many years in the future. But it's after he murders Tom, who died protecting his kit who was nearly killed by One Eye that he really starts going over the Moral Event Horizon. He manipulates his daughter to act as a double agent and spy on both the moor cats and Clear Sky's group, drives out Clear Sky, leaves a bloody gash on every single one of his cats even his hostages, willing or not, and viciously claws anyone who even thinks of betraying him threatening death if they continue. He treats his rogues as disposable as well. When the moor cats and Clear Sky find out about the cure for the sickness, they are led into a trap by One Eye who chases them off and destroys the plant. Later, the sickness affects many cats in both Clear Sky's camp and the moor including the pregnant Holly, so the cats send Clear Sky to lure One Eye into a trap. It is then revealed that Star Flower, a cat who Thunder trusted, was Clear Sky's daughter and was manipulated into telling her father about the battle plan which causes Thunder to go through a Heroic BSoD. He shows no affection for his daughter only congratulating her when she succeeds as a spy. After his death, it is revealed that Petal and two kits are sick with the sickness and One Eye left them to die. One Eye cares about no one but himself and actively waged a war of extermination on the moor cats, even attacking loners and rogues who were on his territory.
Does anyone want to add anything or edit this? Any comments?
Hm. If twisted and obsessive love can be considered a disqualifier, shouldn't we reconsdier Dr Arden's case? I mean, his "love" for Sister Mary Eunice was anything but healthy.
And while we are at it, Sister Mary Eunice herself. Well, after her possession. The AHS wiki describes the demon possessing her as a "a parasitic seed of pure evil." Doesn't sound like a thing having much of a moral agency, to me.
edited 22nd Jan '15 6:27:08 PM by LogoP
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.Twisted love can be cut reasons, several examples were voted down in the past because of that. The reason why Bellatrix from Harry Potter and Patrick Bateman from American Psycho are still up is because their behaviour is more like an obsession/screwing around with other people's minds (respectively) than love.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanGot some good news and slightly less good news.
After last nights episode of The Vampire Diaries I think Kai is ready to be proposed. Some advice though - Is it wise to bring him before the season's up or should I wait a little longer ?
Also after looking over a play through for Saints Row: Gat Out of Hell, I can confirm Satan sets a new heinous standard. I might do a summuration of him today or tomorrow.
The slightly less good news is, since I went on a proposal binge the past month, and so before I can bring up any more proposals, I think we should tie up some loose ends - what's the final votes for Antonio Alvarez and Dr. Pickman ?
edited 23rd Jan '15 5:25:42 AM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."I will be done with my current book this weekend. After, this, I will get to reading the two Wolf Creek prequels to see if Mick still counts. It might take a while to finish the two books however.
jjjYou know, I might as well bring Satan up now. Now is as good a time as any other.
Who is He ? What does he do ?
Satan is, well, Satan. In this game he is depicted as the ruler of hell and the administraitor of eternal damnnation. He left audio logs around hell, called the Damned Souls Orientation Guide, one has Satan gleefully describe how the first thing a soul does in Hell is kill themselves and hope things get sorted out, only to reawake in hell over a period of centuries, and another describing how he incased the Beast of Babylon in stone for fighting against him. He is also plotting a second war against Heaven, invade it, and take revenge on God. His army consists of demons of course, and damned souls he'd often recruit. Following he desuction of Earth in the previous Saints Row game, Hell is quicker at collecting souls than Heaven, and has built up enough numbers to plot a successful siege. He abducts the Saints Row protagonist (commonly known as The Boss) to force him/her to marry his daughter Jezzabell to make him his general. This prompts the Bosses lieutenants, Johnny Gat and Kinzie Kensington (both promoted to playable) to journey into Hell and rescue them. Eventually, Johnny get Satan's attention, and when they first meet, Satan threatens to break his daughters neck and forces Johnny into a deal - Johnny takes the Bosses place, and he releases the Bosses souls. At the wedding, Johnny shoots Satan in the face, and in the following boss fight, Satan is defeated. Unable to face the indignity of being beaten by a mortal, Satan banishes Johnny, Kinzie, The Boss, and Jezzabell back to the mortal realm.
Redeeming Traits or Freudian Excuse ?
Nope. In his first proper appearance, he makes it clear to his daughter he see's her as a possession, smacking her around when she's defiant, and later threatens to break her neck; when Johnny points out that he threatened his daughter, Satan replies "I'll say something kind at her funeral." He doesn't care for his minions, and his recordings make it clear he sees them as expendable, and he praises Johnny for his brutality in killing his generals. Moral Agency isn't an issue, as Jezzabell is also a demon and pretty innocent. The game also uses his backstory as a fallen angel who rebelled against God. In fact, there's a location in Hell called the Black Cathedral, which according to the Audio Recordings, God placed there to give Satan a chance to repent, and Satan left it there as an example that he rebelled, not out of anger, but out of will. Now you can say that the examples provided by the recording are Offscreen Villainy, but I'd say the basic environment is amicable as evidence.
Heinous by the Stories Standard ?
Like I said, the Saints Row franchise has an even looser standard that Grand Theft Auto. The heinous standard in the first three games was set by the protagonists and antagonists alike, as they focused on the conflict between the Saints and rival gangs. Even then, the Saints had small standards against terrorism, genocide, and praises things like friendship and loyalty. The villain of the fourth game, Zinyak set a new heinous standard by abducting a majority of humanity, forcing them through their personal hells via simulations to break their wills, and destroying the earth, killing the rest of humanity. It helps that the Saints turned a new leaf in that game. I'd say Satan set a new heinous standard like Zinyak before him, as Satan is the ruler of hell, the instigator of eternal torment, and plotting an invasion of Heaven. And get this, according to the recordings, Hell was an initially pleasant place God inteneded to make a time out spot, but Satan used his anger to twist it into what it is today.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."@ACW: Can you format my write-up then? Maybe edit it a little? I'm not very good with formatting. I'd just make it into several paragraphs. I think One Eye has enough votes to be added, so when the write-up is formatted, I'll request it's addition in the locked pages topic.
Also any thoughts on Tigerstar? Should he be voted on again? He has shown to legitimately care about his children before they betrayed him, feeling genuinely hurt when Bramblestar wouldn't join him as an apprentice, though most of that goes out the window after his death, and he's quite happy to see Hawkfrost dead in The Last Hope.
edited 23rd Jan '15 2:26:27 PM by Klavice
I recently noticed that Nyarlathotep was removed from the Persona 2 page. Was he really agreed on to be cut? I recall that he was voted a keep because the games made it clear that he wasn't simply acting out his "purpose", but was rather a total sadist who chose to completely destroy Tatsuya and Jun's lives, drove Okamaru insane, caused (both directly and indirectly) the deaths of millions, and destroyed the world literally just so he could prove a point to Philemon.

Ahh, I see your point. I re-affirm my
for Stanley then.