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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#34526: Jan 19th 2015 at 6:55:38 AM

[up][up]

  • The edit bug now working is recent. I don't know how who wanna do Whoniverse, so could you please take care of that?
  • Nickelodeon can be cut.
  • Lucy writeup looks good. Just wrap a Big Bad around Mr. Jang and a Cold-Blooded Torture around torturing.
  • I'll [tup] both Bianco and Avatar.

edited 19th Jan '15 6:55:49 AM by ACW

forsetipurge Since: Sep, 2010
#34527: Jan 19th 2015 at 6:57:50 AM

You want to use the write-up I already did for Lamarr or start a new one?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#34529: Jan 19th 2015 at 7:10:50 AM

ACW: If you want to know how Jake Skinner competes with Lilly D from The Haunting Hour - Jake is the villain of the Dead Body story arc, he's the ghost of a teenager that died in the 1950's. Jake was the greaser type who pulled a prank on some jocks and in retaliation they lock him in a cage during a school dance, and accidently set the gym on fire. In the present, Jake meets a bullied teenager named Will and makes a deal with him - he'll help deal with the bullies, and then they'll take it from there. Jake's attacks on the bullies aren't exactly harmless pranking, his powers where pretty demonic, and he give them both panic attacks. He later approaches Will and tells him to hold up his end of the deal. He takes Will to the night he died, and when Will breaks Jake out of the cage, Jake leaves Will to burn to death, simply grinning when Will calls for help. In the present Jake is alive, and Will finds out he's a ghost now and only Jake can see him, and Jake rubs it in Will's face by dancing with his love interest Anna. In his next appearance, Jake presues a relationship with Anna and continues to taunt Will that he's living a new life. Soon Jake runs into the Grim Reaper, who calls Jake an abomination and puts a curse on him - Jake begins to rapidly decay and concludes that he needs to kill to get his life back and decides Anna to be his next victim. Jake takes Anna on another date to isolate and try to kill her, before Will manifests (his need to protect Anna gave him a physical body) and he takes Jake in a fist fight. The fight is cut short when Death makes another appearance and drags Jake to Hell. As far as redeeming qualities go Jake seems to take his defeat pretty well - at the end of the episode, he breaks out of hell, just to get his comb back.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
MsPickles Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#34530: Jan 19th 2015 at 7:11:46 AM

Why hasn't anybody commented on my posts?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#34531: Jan 19th 2015 at 7:16:41 AM

[up] Be patient tongue. It's slow today.
[up][up]Hmm, has a Freudian Excuse and a not-terrible-high bodycount. For now I'm leaning [tdown].

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#34532: Jan 19th 2015 at 7:19:44 AM

Probably doesn't help that if you think about it, Jake's attempt to kill Anna was pretty much out of self preservation. He's a cad, but it's hard to ignore that.

Also, based on my research on Charmed, a lot of the villains are your classic Monster of the Week antagonist, Big Bad demons (unless they have moral agency Made of Evil may be an issue), and Cole Turner, the most fleshed out villain I've seen so far, is very sympathetic and has a redeeming quality.

edited 19th Jan '15 7:24:11 AM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
MsPickles Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#34533: Jan 19th 2015 at 7:21:27 AM

I would have thought Biff trying to rape Lorraine would take him out of harmless punk territory, I know that's not really enough to call him a CM in and of itself, but for an otherwise lighthearted family film it's still pretty shocking. So Beast, what do you think about Machinedramon and Hidan?

edited 19th Jan '15 7:22:04 AM by MsPickles

forsetipurge Since: Sep, 2010
#34534: Jan 19th 2015 at 7:24:44 AM

Lamarr repost:

Julia Lamarr, the Big Bad of Running Blind. A Dirty Cop FBI profiler, she murders no less than four women, all of whom have absolutely nothing to do with her, just so she could cover up the motive of her murder of her stepsister. Said stepsister has never actually wronged her at all; she just happens to be selected by their father to receive the family inheritance instead of Lamarr. Lamarr's point of view narrations—written in second person to disguise her identity—further reveals that she has absolutely no redeeming value to her character whatsoever; not only she has no regard to the human lives she took, she's more or less using the inheritance affair as an excuse to lash out and prove she is smarter than everyone. Even Reacher, usually The Stoic vigilante who've seen and done all kinds of killings himself, is so enraged by the senselessness of her crimes that when he catches her in the act he pretty much crushes her neck in one punch without giving her a chance at all. A cold-blooded Diabolical Mastermind with an irretrievable streak of It's All About Me, you may very well think of Lamarr as George Foyet if Foyet were a woman, works in the FBI BAU, and uses her status to cover up all those murders she's committed. Oh, and her methods of killing is a Nightmare Fuel on its own, too. A skilled hypnotist, she hypnotizes her victims to swallow their own tongues, leaving them to suffocate slowly to death. And throughout the whole process she revels in how smart she is for killing them.

MsPickles Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#34535: Jan 19th 2015 at 7:28:24 AM

Ive never seen it but she sounds nasty enough for a [tup]. So forsetipurge what do you think of the examples I've suggested, namely adding Machinedramon and Biff and dropping Hidan?

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#34536: Jan 19th 2015 at 7:44:58 AM

Monster.Whoniverse is now up. Unless there's something that should be rewritten, it can be locked and indexed on Monster.Live Action TV. Monster.Doctor Who should be redirected to the new page for inbounds, and the Monster.The Sarah Jane Adventures redirect can be cut as it has no inbounds and no examples from that show.

edited 19th Jan '15 7:45:13 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#34537: Jan 19th 2015 at 7:45:00 AM

[up][up][up]Hmm, good draft, but needs tweaking.

[up]Done.

edited 19th Jan '15 7:53:45 AM by ACW

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#34538: Jan 19th 2015 at 9:13:08 AM

Didn't we already discuss Lamarr ? Pretty sure she got [tup] votes.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#34539: Jan 19th 2015 at 9:14:17 AM

@ 34535 Ms Pickles, I don't think Biff is heinous enough, especially when we see him in the regular 1985 where he is just a jerk. Attempted Rape is bad, but not bad enough to get on this trope on its own in one case. In the alternate 1985, we don't see Biff killing Marty's father, so that is off screen villainy and trying to kill Marty is just trying to kill the hero of the film, not evil enough to merit above the baseline heinous standard and I think turning Hill Valley into a crime infested cesspool is bad, but still not bad enough to warrant Biff being a monster.

So Biff may be more then just a "meanie", but he is not quite evil enough for this trope.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#34540: Jan 19th 2015 at 9:17:31 AM

[up][up] Yeah, we're just discussing the writeup.

holders Since: Mar, 2013
#34541: Jan 19th 2015 at 9:18:49 AM

Biff Tannen? NO! NO and 100 times NOOOOOOOO! He is as standard as you can get even in the alternate timeline. His worst act is killing George Mc Fly. Not only this is totally offscreen, all standard villains try to kill the heroes and their rivals. Forcing Lorraine to marry him? Well, that is not good but not nearly something I would consider a CM worthy, plus it is highly implied that Lorraine married him willingly for his money.

edited 19th Jan '15 10:10:04 AM by holders

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#34542: Jan 19th 2015 at 9:30:38 AM

@Ms. Pickles

Demanding to know why people aren't replying to you is generally considered bad form. As for some answers to your questions...

Biff doesn't even meet baseline heinousness. He was cut on account of that, and he stays cut.

Machinedramon was cut because he fails to live up to the heinous standards that were set by Piedmon, and by Myotismon. Since the latter is considerably weaker than Machinedramon, but his actions are considerably worse, that kills any chance of his qualifying.

Tobi/Obito was cut because the story insisted that he really did care about Rin and really did think he was doing the right thing. It might go completely against previous characterization, and fall utterly flat as far as most of the audience is concerned, but leaving him up would be a violation of forum policy.

Hidan was voted up and he'll stay up. You're right that his actions aren't all that much worse than most of the other Akatsuki members, but that's where the tier system comes into play. The reason Hidan doesn't have Pain or Orochimaru's bodycounts is because at the end of the day, he's the single weakest member of the Akatsuki. Most of them are walking WMDs, but Hidan isn't—he's a thrill-killing thug, whose only real power is not dying (and even that doesn't give him as much of an edge as it should), and whose IQ is lower than that of your average rock. Taking those factors into account, the question is, is Hidan as heinous as he can be, with the tools that he has at his disposal? The answer is, yes, and that's why he stays where he is.

holders Since: Mar, 2013
#34543: Jan 19th 2015 at 9:55:26 AM

And few more things on Biff. Turning Hill Valley into hell is very standard villainy. You are not going to expect a place ruled by the villain to be Heaven on earth obviously. Biff Tannen becomes a classical example of a typical Big Bad in the alternate timeline. Rule under him sucks, tries to kill the hero, killed someone in the past offscreen. Yep, Big Bad but nowhere near a Complete Monster, and I don't even think that he crossed Moral Event Horizon. He is not even the most evil character in the story in my opinion; the most evil is his great-grandfather Buford Tannen from the third movie, and even him I would not consider a Complete Monster. That is all I have to say about Biff.

edited 19th Jan '15 10:10:27 AM by holders

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#34544: Jan 19th 2015 at 10:11:53 AM

[up] Hold on, didn't Scar try to kill the hero and rule under him was hell? Now, I'm not arguing against Scar, but...

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#34545: Jan 19th 2015 at 10:31:38 AM

The hero Scar tried to kill was his nephew and he successfully killed his brother. My guess, killing or attempting to kill your family makes it more heinous.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
holders Since: Mar, 2013
#34546: Jan 19th 2015 at 10:32:13 AM

I actually compared Scar in my mind to Biff but the difference is that Simba was his nephew who was only a child which often, while not always, pushes you over the edge at least in an animated Disney movie. That and also, we actually see Scar killing the Simba's dad unlike with Marty's dad which is completely offscreen. And scenes with Scar I would say are played with a much darker tone than with Biff. Most importantly, Back To The Future, while lighthearted, is still a live-action movie with a little more matured themes as opposed to The Lion King that is a kids cartoon so Scar's actions are more heinous by the standards of his story than Biff's.

edited 19th Jan '15 10:34:37 AM by holders

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#34547: Jan 19th 2015 at 10:47:45 AM

Okay...stop bringing up the Joker for a while. Please? It's enormously annoying, even moreso how WHENEVER he comes up, SOMEONE goes "but he's like the CM pinnacle with Palpatine and Red Skull!" How often do those two come up in comparison? See why the Joker is annoying?

Now to catch up:

@ Caellach: Blayce needs to be compressed, but no issues there. We should likely have a Tortall Universe page, yes.

@ Beast: I've seen Halloween 6, so I could support Wynn as it retroactively makes him responsible for just about EVERYTHING. I think Alvarez...doesn't get mitigated from that. But Jake Skinner is a no. He has a very, very small attempted body count. Honestly, Beast, I think you're better off staying away from kids' show examples. That's a grand total body count of two, with a lot of "well, he's a jerk."

@ Morgen: Agree with your outstanding issues and good Jang writeup. Yes to Avatar as well.

@ Forseti: Yes to Julie Lamarr

And why did that need a scar comparison? Why would you open that can of worms? Is the difference between the two not IMMEDIATELY obvious enough for you?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#34548: Jan 19th 2015 at 10:49:29 AM

[up] I have not seen BTTF.
Should the Krona entry from Green Lantern go to DC And Vertigo, or does it need tweaking? And if it's good, I'm guessing Post-Crisis folder along with Mongul II and Nekron?
And actually, after looking at this, Wynn seems like he could very well count.

edited 19th Jan '15 10:55:27 AM by ACW

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#34549: Jan 19th 2015 at 11:07:00 AM

@ Machinedramon: This is possibly irrelevant, but... is he stronger/does he have more resources than Myotismon? Myotismon at his strongest was using six Ultimates and one of the strongest Champions as target practice and had brainwashed an entire city. Machinedramon went down in one hit to an average-strength Mega, albeit one with Super Effective weapons who was so exhausted after doing so he turned back into an In-Training.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#34550: Jan 19th 2015 at 11:15:55 AM

Lighty: Since you've seen Halloween 6 I found Utopia Justifies the Means until the cults goals - does that make Wynn a WIE or is that in inconsistency between the theatrical and producers cut ?

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."

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