During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
That, and he also referred to Riza as a mother-figure when he was under her control (he was fed a purple liquid). The wikia itself (link
) questions this as whether or not he only wanted a mother's affection.
But then again, it also said that anyone who drank the purple substance that Riza produced would be emotionally attached to her, so this might be the case with Julio. After all, he didn't feel anything when his mother got killed.
I'm also not convinced that he loved Sylvia.
edited 7th Jan '15 12:30:01 PM by AustinDR
For Applelox.
@ Nxjll, if we are all agreed I will request that Angry Pie be cut from the mlp fanworks page. I disagree with your thoughts on Kabuto though: he is a Torture Technician who performs experiments on beings while they are still alive, often neglecting to use anesthetic just to make them suffer. He also wanted to experiment on a child. When the guards try to arrest him, he tries to vivisect them. While he does have some loyalty to Chrysalis, it is no more redeeming than Bellatrix's loyalty toward Voldemort.
jjjI covered Sylvia in my post. Any interaction with her is questionable as he is explicitly poisoning her mind and manipulating her during that scene. Sylvia is then grabbed by Riza for presumably unpleasant things and Julio neither raises a finger to stop her, nor does he bother mentioning her after. This is a redeeming quality that's probably out of doubt from the last few episodes and can be quite easily dismissed.
He does call Riza 'mama' while in bed, but given he actually arranged the death of his mother without hesitation, and the fact that Julio's attempted genocide of the Norma is explicitly said to be his own plan of his own volition by Embryo (who, again, is basically God), I'm not inclined to absolve him of any of it. As for caring about Riza, I can't say any deep feelings exist, since the only thing we see there is her in bed with him and him clearly enjoying it. He never acts towards her with any warm affection, nor does he profess love to her.
As far as the heinous standard goes...not entirely too high (so far). Embryo hasn't really done much yet, but apparently he's responsible for the creation of the world and the Norma system. There's little by way of civilian casualties. Really, the series is so schizophrenic on tone that a dark episode where the heroes face the probability of their comrades' death is intercut with whacky hotsprings hijinks in the next episode. The most crimes are fairly innocuous ones committed by Ange's own squadmates. Julio, thus far, has the highest level of villainy that's actually played straight 100 percent through, and for his relative weakness as a human being he manages to achieve a lot.
This does raise an interesting question, too. Julio never displays much by way of anything but lust towards Riza, which is brought on by her giving him mind altering substances...if his only possible caring for someone are brought out by external factors like such That's a moral agency issue in the opposite direction we normally see and shouldn't count against him.
edited 7th Jan '15 12:40:41 PM by Lightysnake
There's definitely more to see from Riza, but Julio's genocidal attempts are pretty much his own entirely. Riza was trying to manipulate him to open up an access point she needed.
That, and the feelings she induces are more lust and creepy mother issues rather than any love. And he never expresses any positive emotion to her on his own beyond "Riza, do the thing."
Don't take it as me being harsh or irritated, btw. I'm not. Just trying to give a detailed explanation. It's fair to bring it all up.
Sylvia, however, I'm definitely certain is a non-issue as far as redeeming qualities go. She's nothing but a tool like everyone else. Julio acts like a sweet big brother, but that's only because he wants to use her, and she's not ahead of him in the line for the throne.
edited 7th Jan '15 12:44:52 PM by Lightysnake
If anything change in the latter half of the series and we get more revealed, I'll update the thread. I only proposed Julio now as he was quite definitively killed off for good at the end of the first half of the series.
Same for Hendricksen, as I do not expect him to count now. In my defense for proposing him, this was an enormous plot twist and he was apparently killed off at the end of his arc
I can do a re write for Makarov sometime in the near future. As for Discord, I think I should wait until the end of the last arc. If no one minds, I will request Angry Pie be cut, and delete most of the examples found only on the Pony POV Series ymmv page. That just leaves Kabuto as the last unresolved nomine from that work. Since this is the last issue for tht work until we get to re writes, we should probably decide on him now so we can get it out of our hair. As a reminder of his actions, he tries to experiment on beings, neglects to use anesthetic, tries to vivisect people, and wants to experiment on a child. He's also the only other Changeling who is aware of Chrysalis's plans to build a rune to tear all the love out of every being in equestrian. Is that enough?
jjj![]()
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I'm unsure about Kabuto. How many of these experiments has he done? Like, has he killed hundreds?
For Discord, maybe there should be a short summation of his crimes to replace the awful entry that's there now, and then we can replace it with a more comprehensive one after the arc ends.
edit: hmm, it seems that the Monster page and the YMMV page are different, and his entry on the Monster page isn't nearly as bad, though it may have stuff from the version of Discord that you said redeemed himself.
edited 7th Jan '15 1:47:10 PM by Camberf
I have a rewrite for The Nuptialverse's Discord.
- The Nuptialverse: Discord from the story Metamorphosis was the one who murdered the founders of Equestria and was responsible for Chrysalis' Start of Darkness. He manipulated a disgrunlted pegasus into attacking the meeting discussing the unity of the ponies, offering her the powers of an Alicorn and turning the Flutterponies into the monsterous Changelings for an army. They attacked the meeting, wiped out all guards to replace with the Changelings, forced Commander Hurricane to shoot her friend Pansy, transforming the rest of them causing them to fall apart and die, and made the two survives Celestia and Luna immortal so they can never join them in death. After this he has the Changelings turn the pegusus into Queen Chrysalis explaining that he had promsed her "the Powers of an Alicorn", and the two of them turn Equestaria into a chaotc hellhole for thousands of years.
edited 7th Jan '15 4:10:31 PM by randomtroper89
@ Camberf, in the end, since Equestria does not have the death penalty, Kabuto is sentenced to be banished to the sun for a period of one year each for every year of life he stole from his victims. Cadence said that she doubted her great great grandchildren would live to see his release. No actual bodycount is given though, the most we get is "a lot". What we do see him do though is quite bad.
edited 7th Jan '15 2:52:34 PM by bobg
jjjSince I don't have school tomorrow due t the tempature, I might have enough time tonight to propose re writes for Discord and Makarov (focusing only on Discord's crimes in the reharmonised timeline and shortening Makarov's entry). If no one minds, I will also request Angy Pie to be cut from he main page tonight and get rid of most of the entries only found on the ymmv page. Once we can get a clear majority vote on Kabuto, and know rather or not he counts, we should be done with that work until the last arc finishes.
@ Randomtroper, good re write.
edited 7th Jan '15 3:52:06 PM by bobg
jjjSo since me and Morganthaler are the only ones to have voted
on Ammut, with four
votes in her favor, I'm going to write her up an rough entry. Not to late to get a few more deciding votes or arguments though.
- House of Anubis: Season 3 gives us Ammut, and Egyptian deity who feeds on souls, giving them eternal unrest. In the series, Ammut desired to walk among the human world, using the corrupted Robert Frobisher-Smythe carry out release at the price of corrupting five people to sin, and trap them. Upon being awakened, Ammut requests more souls and gives Smythe a book as a means to trap them for her. When the seasons protagonist, KT re-imprisons Ammut with the Sun and Moon keys, Ammut goes out devouring the soul of her willing servant, Caroline, who earlier requested to rule the world along side Ammut.
Also, while looking over the House of Anubis series, I came across two other potential candidate from the show, Senkhara, one of the Big Bad's of season 2, who I'll bring up tomorrow along with a potential Disney Channel candidate, The Annihilator from Mighty Med.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Oh, thanks. I don't think Angry Pie counts though, given her lack of moral agency. Anyway I will request she be cut later tonight if no one objects, and I will offer re writes for Makarov and Discord. Than, if a decision is reached for Kabuto, we can be done until the end of the last arc.
edited 7th Jan '15 4:26:47 PM by bobg
jjjHere are my re writes for Discord and Makarov:
- Discord is depicted far more evil than in canon. Prior to his original imprisonment, he caused a war that resulted in three genocides. During said war, Discord cannibalized his own brother Destruction to gain his powers. After his release, he breaks the Mane Six, mind rapes Trixie into catatonia, announces to Cloudsdale that Rainbow Dash doomed all of Equestria for their safety, and does things to the ponies of Equestria such as making Silver Spoon's father try to behead her, and turning Blueblood into a mare of living ice and sending a stallion of solar flames to rape her to death. After being re imprisoned, he tricks Diamond Tiara into freeing him by offering to free her mother from the asylum, but after his release, he reveals to Diamond that her mother tried to kill her (a memory she had blocked from her mind), and transforms her into his dragon to aid in destroying Equestria.
- The Shining Armor arc has General-Admiral Solomon Azure Raven Makarov, who is actually a reality bending creature who wants to re write all of reality to revolve solely around him. his actions include trying to kill Shining Armor for not knowing who he is, abducting four ponies and converting them into cyborgs who are fully aware but unable to do anything but obey his orders, trying to slaughter a village, and blowing off Running Gag's wing. His plan is to launch a super weapon that will disable Pegasus and griffin flight, sending millions falling to their deaths and causing a massive war. after Shining feeds him to The Blank Wolf, he awakens to find the world a much better place, showing just how bad he really was.
edited 7th Jan '15 6:15:40 PM by bobg
jjj![]()
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Good rewrites.
On the subject of Fan Works, I've gone through the main page and gathered a list of some of the more sticky-out ones, as I did a long while back. They're either Zero Content Examples, lacking significant amounts of detail, or just don't appear heinous enough.
EDIT: Right, according to most opinions on the thread, I've left notes for each.
Nobility: Didier will kill anybody simply who supports Anjou. At first, it seemed that he just wanted to become the chiropteran king. However, it is revealed that he had several chances to kill Anjou, but he blew them off in favor of Mind Rape. (Note: Offstage Villainy. Cut.)
- The fake Gennai. What he does to Mimi is quite possibly the most disturbing act of callousness in the entire franchise (canon included). (Note: Overwhelmingly bad Zero Content Example. Cut.)
- Daemon definitely counts as well. There is nothing he cares about more than inflicting as much suffering as possible, and he is perfectly willing to slaughter thousands including a seven year old girl in order to get what he wants. (Note: Keep, unless someone can make a case for his morality.)
- The Nightmare is another example, an Ax-Crazy, digital, Humanoid Abomination that delights in causing pain to others so that it can enjoy their reactions. Takato even says that it's worse than D-Reaper (Note: Cut, Generic Doomsday Villain and a slave to his own programming.)
- The demonic Cobweb, who imprisons Sleepwalker in Rick Sheridan's mind as part of a larger plan and later Mind Rapes one of Rick's friends into committing suicide less than two days after Rick's birthday. (Note: Cut for failing the heinous standard.)
- Fever Pitch, a Manson-like cult leader and serial killer who voluntarily transformed himself into a fiery skeletal monstrosity as part of his divine crusade. (Note: Keep, expand.)
- Jack the Ripper, who returns to terrorize New York City in the twentieht century. (Note: Zero Content Example, so unless anyone can make a detailed case for him, cut)
- Psyko, a terrifying monstrosity who subjects his victims to their worst nightmares while they're wide awake, even as he uses their bodies as People Puppets. (Note: Cut, transformed against his own will)
- One such example is Firebrand, a Schoolyard Bully All Grown Up who went from bullying to assault to multiple murders and thought that Dad's money and Dad's connections would get him off scot-free...and this was before he became a supervillain. (Note: Keep, expand.)
- Mary Jane Watson's own father, Phillip, a Corrupt Corporate Executive who routinely engaged in Domestic Abuse to his wife, even as he openly cuckolded her for years on end. (Note: Cut for failing the heinous standard.)
- Jack O'Lantern, a costumed psychopath who sees himself as The Unfettered and commits ever-escalating crimes mostly For the Evulz and developed a crazed obsession with his teenaged nemesis after Spider-Woman kept interfering in his "fun". (Note: Keep for now unless someone can argue for his level of insanity.)
Ace Combat: Equestria Chronicles: Gilda becomes one by torturing Rainbow Dash and breaking Medley's wings anyway just to spite the former. (Note: Cut for failing the heinous standard.)
Dumbledore's Army and the Year of Darkness: "Professor" Hans Belsen, named for the Belsen-Bergen Concentration Camp. If Grindelwald is an Expy for Adolf Hitler, then Belsen is an Expy for Josef Mengele. (Note: Offstage Villainy, Zero Content Example. Cut.)
Thirty Minutes And Counting: Office Fromansky, a character from a fifth season episode. Try reading about Gil's feet getting numerous nails driven through them, plus the other abuse he took, and not getting sad for him. (Note: Cut for failing the heinous standard.)
I Didn't Sign Up For This: Another monster is Martin (pronounced Mar-teen). He kills his brother in the same explosion because he was The Un-Favorite, and mocks his death on Facebook. He also vandalizes the Music Tech room for no reason. (Note: Cut for failing the heinous standard compared to the Big Bad.)
Fortitude: Ashton who plans to force Zelda to marry him and also plans on "breaking" her. He stops at nothing to try and kill Link, he never cares about anyone, and he even '' has Heather whipped because Zelda ran away for three days. (Note: Cut for failing the heinous standard, unless someone can bring up a case for him.)
The Sacred and the Profane: Zirah is kind, always smiling, and would kill a baby just because it was crying. Even if said baby is The Antichrist. He is still affected by Cuteness Proximity, which makes it so much worse. The other demons are so creeped out by his behavior that they kicked him out of hell. (Note: Cut for being a Well-Intentioned Extremist, failing the heinous standard, being Affably Evil, etc...)
72 Hours: Brynn orders the Brat Pack to assault Lenore, Damien's girlfriend, and shaves her bald. Later, during the prom, when Damien went to give Lenore her corsage, Brynn replaced the flower with a lock of her hair, convincing Lenore that Damien was behind the attack. This not only causes her to break up with Damien, but also drives him to play the program and become the deranged Carrie-Gollum-Jason combo he becomes, with his first targets being the Brat Pack. (Note: Cut for failing the heinous standard.)
Imperfect Metamorphosis: The Shadow Youkai is essentially the Anthropomorphic Personification of death and destruction, it delights in havoc and carnage, but, even rendered relatively powerless, demonstrates an incredible fondness and proficiency for Mind Rape as well, shattering the mind of one of its "captors", and is motivated by nothing but raw sadism. (Note: Cut unless someone can make a case for Offstage Villainy.)
There.
edited 8th Jan '15 1:08:42 PM by Scraggle

This was under Julio on the character page:
I assume that it should be removed or edited.
edited 7th Jan '15 11:59:20 AM by Camberf