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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#33951: Jan 6th 2015 at 4:51:28 PM

@Hamburger Time - you and me both.

Any other opinions on Ammut ?

edited 6th Jan '15 4:52:07 PM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#33952: Jan 6th 2015 at 4:56:07 PM

[up] She seems a bit generic, but I can vote [tup] due the that "festival" thing which sounds extremely messed up. Was that more her or her henchman responsible for that, though?

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#33953: Jan 6th 2015 at 4:59:17 PM

Well the author (Alexwarlorn) claims to be doing it for the art, and he does have a lot of fans, but yeah things can easily be taken out of context. Anyway I don't think Angry Pie compares to the other villains of the story anyway. I don't mind cutting her. Discord and Makarov just need re writes (discord to focus on just the reharmonised timeline and Makarov because it's too long. The only one I really think still needs to be discussed is Kabuto, who I will give a write up detailing his crimes in a bit.

jjj
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#33954: Jan 6th 2015 at 5:01:22 PM

I'm still voting "no" to Pony stuff on principle. I just feel like, even if it's not evident from the text itself, stories like that are written with tongue firmly in cheek. I can't think of any other motivation to write something like that, but that may be just me.

Okay, this kind of attitude is not helpful. If you can't feel capable of taking the examples seriously, then abstain, but this is a show with a ridiculously large Periphery Demographic that may have started out tongue-in-cheek but is pretty sincere overall now. I've actually seen this particular fanfic entry pimped all over the wiki, and I feel pretty confident in saying that it's meant seriously - and that it's not intended as a darkfic either. That doesn't mean I don't think it's stupid as all hell (really, the Complete Monster examples don't even seem to get into most of it), but one of the main points of this site is to treat all fiction as equally worthy of troping. "It's stupid" is not a reason to allow badly-written or wrong examples, or to disqualify legitimate ones.

You don't have to like it, but voting no on principle isn't okay.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#33955: Jan 6th 2015 at 5:02:54 PM

Alright then, abstention it is.

edited 6th Jan '15 5:09:46 PM by HamburgerTime

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#33957: Jan 6th 2015 at 5:09:05 PM

[up][up][up]Otherwise we wouldn't have the Manos example. I've not seen it, but I've heard it's really bad.

edited 6th Jan '15 5:09:21 PM by ACW

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#33958: Jan 6th 2015 at 5:14:21 PM

[up][up][up][up] Ah well in that case...

So Angry Pie is a sentient split personality ? Now I'm no psychologist, but aren't all split personalities sentient or is that just Hollywood schizophrenia ?

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#33959: Jan 6th 2015 at 5:17:35 PM

To clarify, though, I'm edgy about Pony darkfic not because it's bad, but because I feel it's likely intended to be parodical. I'd feel the same way about, say, Spongebob darkfic. If this isn't really intended as an over-the-top dark story though, it could be included.

edited 6th Jan '15 5:18:25 PM by HamburgerTime

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#33960: Jan 6th 2015 at 5:18:04 PM

Can someone give me quicklinks to the actual entries, BTW?

edited 6th Jan '15 5:18:17 PM by nrjxll

Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#33961: Jan 6th 2015 at 6:19:35 PM

I don't think that fics like Pony POV are meant to be parodies, I think the author just likes the characters and writes a story they think is interesting with those characters, even if it doesn't match the tone of the show at all. I think that's all there is to it.

LordXavius Doesn't even like this username from many fandoms Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Doesn't even like this username
#33962: Jan 6th 2015 at 6:36:21 PM

It helps to remember that (this generation of) MLP has had several villains who definitely fit the CM mindset and were presented as serious threats but didn't count because the show, being aimed at a relatively young audience, (most likely) can't get away with showing stuff that would meet the baseline heinous standard. Many fics, being aimed at the Periphery Demographic, can therefore naturally have actual CM candidates without radically altering the tone established by the show simply because the authors don't have to worry about not scarring the minds of kids and/or placating Moral Guardians.

Now, there are a lot of fics that are simply dark for darkness's sake, of course, and even the one discussed right now seems... somewhat disturbing in tone (never read it, just going by the posts here), but parody should never be automatically assumed unless it's obvious the work in question is over-the-top.

On another note, I should start actually voting on stuff again. Lazy me.

edited 6th Jan '15 6:41:24 PM by LordXavius

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#33963: Jan 6th 2015 at 7:41:02 PM

The final story arc of the Pony POV Series is not over yet, so we should probably wait until the end tosee if Discord is redeemed or not. It could take a few moths to about a year, so we probably need not concern him now. At the end, if he still qualifies, we can do a re write of his entry. Makarov and Pegasus Despot are already on the main page. I have already explaned why the examples on the ymmv page (with the possible exception of Kabuto) do not count. I have no problem with cutting Angry Pie if no one else does. With that said, here's the write up for Kabuto I said I would give. You all can take a look at it and tell me if you yhink he counts or not. After we decide on him and Angry Pie, I will cut the examples found only on the ymmv page, than once the story is finished, we will see about Discord.

  • Kabuto from the Royal Wedding arc is the Evil Genius of the Changelings, and the most evil of the Changelings, surpassing even Chrysalis in villainy. Kabuto is considered a monster even by other Changelings, with half the hive hating him, and the other half fearing him. Kabuto is introduced by asking Chrysalis for permission to experiment on the Mane 6 after the Changelings take over. It is later revealed that Kabuto has a long history of killing and experimenting on other beings, including other Changelings, often neglecting to use anesthetic just to make the victim suffer. Kabuto even mentions wanting to experiment on Neatly Spell, who is a foal. When Misfit Actual and his team arrive to arrest hem, he tries to vivisect them. By the end of the story, he's the only Changeling to not be redeemed.

jjj
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#33964: Jan 6th 2015 at 7:47:40 PM

Well I certainly missed a lot when I was away. Happy 2015 everyone! Anyway, I've been reading the most recent Warrior Cats series and I think I might have found some examples that rival Tigerstar, Brokenstar, and Scourge. It's a little early to tell (the arc isn't quite over yet) but from the looks of it, they will qualify. Except Tom of course.) and I take back what I said about Clear Sky. He did kick the dog quite a bit though. I didn't realize he'd end up redeeming himself.

First off is Tom, who I would say is exactly like a cat version of Jeff from Family Guy. He viciously beats his former mate (a lot more than the standard) and her friend, tries to kill her, brought a major threat into the forest (One-Eye is basically Brokenstar. I'll get to him later.) and kidnaps her kits behind her back. HOWEVER, he does not qualify because he does try to save one of her kits even though he killed their mother, and kidnapped them not because he loved them but out of spite. So he's just a standard Jerkass.

Next one isn't so clear-cut. One-Eye is brought into the forest by Tom, who then proceeds to teach extremely vicious fighting techniques to Clear Sky's group (think Brokenstar and Tigerstar) including the kits, almost kills a kit who was only trying to see her father, Tom, and actually does kill quite a few cats in Clear Sky's group, and almost starts another war between the moor cats and the forest cats for fun. While he does die at the end of the most recent book, I think he's done more than enough to be considered, having claimed quite a few cats and nearly killing a kitten just because she disagreed with him. He's not a nazi Expy like Tigerstar, but he is just as brutal as Brokenstar.

Finally we have Snake, who is essentially the original Scourge. He's bloodthirsty, and has killed plenty of cats in addition to manipulating others to do so. When he killed Frost (a former member of Clear Sky's group who was exiled because he was no longer of use) he practically licked the blood off his claws. He is also slated to be the main antagonist of the Dawn of the Clans arc taking over after One-Eye dies.

Neither Snake nor One-Eye are played for laughs or have any redeeming features or Freudian Excuse to mitigate their horrible deeds.

Also I'd like everyone to consider Hawkfrost (Tigerstar's evil son) again, especially with his deeds in The Last Hope (killing Hollyleaf and others, and nearly killing Ivypool) as well as kicking Beetlewhisker's corpse when he is killed by Brokenstar claiming "I never trusted him anyway". He has the deeds to count and the Freudian Excuse only comes in the spinoff manga.

What does everyone think?

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#33965: Jan 6th 2015 at 8:01:05 PM

@ Klavice, Snake and One Eye may count, but you should wait until the end of the arc to make sure. As long as there is even the tiniest chance of redemption, you should always wait. Its exactly why I suggested to wait until the end of the Pony POV Series finale arc before doing a re write for Discord. There is ALWAYS a chance for a last second Heel–Face Turn.

edited 6th Jan '15 8:04:00 PM by bobg

jjj
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#33966: Jan 6th 2015 at 8:14:18 PM

One Eye died though. His arc is over. He was the antagonist for one book. There was no redemption for him before he died.

edited 6th Jan '15 8:14:50 PM by Klavice

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#33967: Jan 6th 2015 at 8:15:57 PM

Agreed on waiting for now.

Shadow?
bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#33968: Jan 6th 2015 at 8:16:16 PM

[up][up] In that case[tup] to One Eye.

edited 6th Jan '15 8:17:58 PM by bobg

jjj
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#33969: Jan 6th 2015 at 8:17:43 PM

Speaking of Warriors, I've read on Scourge's origin story that he had a pretty prominent Freudian Excuse. Was this ever discussed?

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#33970: Jan 6th 2015 at 8:42:20 PM

@ Scraggle, yes, and in that prequel, the author states at the beginning of the book that his Freudian Excuse does not hold water. We all agreed it did not excuse him.

PS. Any opinions on Kabuto? If we can decide on him and Angry Pie, we will be done with the Pony POV Series until the very end where we see if Discord still counts.

jjj
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#33971: Jan 6th 2015 at 9:14:48 PM

Was Angry Pie her own defined character? I have no problem with Kabuto or whatever his name is.

edited 6th Jan '15 9:16:29 PM by AustinDR

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#33972: Jan 6th 2015 at 10:03:05 PM

Angry Pie is depected as a violent psychopath who is pure rag incarate. A Split Personality that act as the living eodiman of all of Pinkie's anger. ather than dealwith her anger likhow a normal person would, she vents her anger by illing. Angry pie wanted to take over Pinkie's mind and become the dominant personality in a Split-Personality Takeover. She was Made Of Rage, not Made of Evil, and I don't need to tell you there are many other ways to deal with anger. Angry Pie wanted to kill all the other split personalities in Pinkie's mind and than Pinkie herself so she could take over. After that, she was going to go on a bloody rampage in the real world. She does have her own defined character, yes, that of a brutal, sadistic bully who vents her rage by killing those she comes across. All the Split Personalities were their own efined character.

edited 6th Jan '15 10:04:41 PM by bobg

jjj
KyleJacobs from DC - Southern efficiency, Northern charm Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#33973: Jan 6th 2015 at 11:02:57 PM

Disregard this post.

edited 6th Jan '15 11:03:22 PM by KyleJacobs

Ekimmak Since: Nov, 2010
#33974: Jan 6th 2015 at 11:21:45 PM

Ok, I seem to recall somewhere that Generic Doomsday Villain does not count as a complete monster. I don't suppose I could have a quick clarification of why, and what the difference is?

KyleJacobs from DC - Southern efficiency, Northern charm Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#33975: Jan 6th 2015 at 11:35:41 PM

A GDV doesn't have enough personality to gauge anything that can be used as a qualifier. Even when written well, they're treated more like a force of nature than an actual character in and of themselves.


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