During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
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- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
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to everyone I missed").
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What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Ammut, the Toadman, Manse.
Whoa, whoa whoa, now before we start voting on Ammut, just let me do a summation before you make your final decision.
Who is Ammut ? What does she do ?
In great mythology, Ammut was a judgement of the dead deity who devoured the hearts of the unworthy. In season 3 of House of Anubis, she is the Bigger Bad, with Robert Frobisher-Smythe acting as her Heavy. Ammut longed to walk in the mortal world, but in order to do so, must be fed the souls of five sinners in a ritual, each sinner being possessed by the sin of greed, anger, spite, jealousy, and pride. Ammut was also implied to be the one who corrupted Smythe while he was is a supernatural coma, who in turn corrupts five of the main cast into sinners for each of those sins. The sinners are imprisoned, but there was one last loose end to tie up, The Staff of Osiris completed, and is placed into a compartment in the sarcophagi room with Robert and the sinners. The staff completes the ritual, unleashing Ammut. Upon being awakened, she says that she must have more souls, and supplied Robert with a book that can easily imprison people's souls, and he did so on the entire student body. Smythe also has families and friends of the students invited to "Founder's Day", a celebration that would trick everyone into becoming more Sinners. Ammut makes use of Smythe's dragon, Caroline who seemingly corrupts the seasons protagonist KT. Carolina also asks Ammut to rule the world alongside her, but KT uses the Sun and Moon Key's (which have the power to protect the world from dark creatures and seal them away), and locking away Ammut, who ends up devouring Caroline's soul.
Any Redeeming Qualities or Freudian Excuse ?
None that we see. Egyptian Mythology isn't exactly my strong suit, so I don't know if she has these in the myths. Ammut is also a deity, but a death god, not a God of Evil, so take that as you will. One factor I can think of against her is that in what little I do know about the myths was that is was Ammut's job to eat souls of the unworthy, so there's that.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
to Manse, Ammut, and the Toadman. Here's De Wynter's writeup.
The Avengers (1998): Sir August De Wynter is the Big Bad and an eco-terrorist using the funds of Wonderland Weather to his own exploits. De Wynter heads the Prospero Project, and discusses the matter with some of the world's top scientists. As a test of loyalty, De Wynter tricks two of the scientists working with him into signing off, and knifing them to death immediately after. He also murders the scientists who helped him build his Doomsday Device after they serve their purpose. Opposing the Ministry, De Wynter clones Emma Peel and has her clone wreak havoc, murdering agents to frame the real Peel. Said experiments De Wynter was involved in were previously tested on animals, which resulted in horrifying mutations on those they were performed on. De Wynter also tries his hand on advancing on the much-younger Peel, briefly erasing her memory and trying to violate her. After the Ministry reveals him as the head of the Prospero Project, De Wynter gloats to the world's leaders that if the planet's weather isn't bought from him, he'll use the weather to ravage the world and kill millions, if not billions, in a variety of horrific ways, London in particular freezing to death. A depraved, selfish Mad Scientist and Bond-esque villain galore, De Wynter was a fitting archetype of the demented, shallow villains appearing in Spy Fiction, and would happily see the world destroyed for his own ambitions and greed.
edited 5th Jan '15 7:45:53 PM by Scraggle
- The Toadman Saga: Keith "Toadman" Lesler was a Serial Killer who was executed for murdering dozens of children. On the brink of death, Eldritch Abomination the Shadowbeast offers him the opportunity to return every 30 years. In the first part he targets Arbram Linfield beheading his two friends Donny and Angie and ties them to his waist. He then attacks Arbam chopping off his leg, who only survives thanks to a crate of fireworks. In the second part a policeman Tyler Smith comes to investigate the murders. When he and local beat cop Doyle Wheeler head down to the mine shaft, Doyle attacks Tyler under the influence of the Shadowbeast. When this fails the Toadman beheads Doyle, and then forces Tyler to free the Shadowbeast.
edited 5th Jan '15 8:02:27 PM by randomtroper89
@Beast: Pretty much in Egyptian mythology, Ammut was just an obstacle to the afterlife. Anubis would weigh the heart of the person to see if they were worthy of passing on or not, and if their hearts were judged poorly, Ammut would then eat the heart, and the person's soul would essentially be in eternal unrest. Ammut was also believed to have resided by a lake of fire and in some traditions the heart would be tossed into the lake. Pretty much, she only really represents destruction in the original mythology.
Also nice writeups, Scraggle and randomtroper 89.
edited 5th Jan '15 8:26:47 PM by AustinDR
Why create a seperate Nickelodeon page? We almost never divide works by the companies that produced/aired them, but on the basis of shared continuity. Companies like Marvel are the exception because their works actually have a shared universe.
RE: Creeper: Moral agency is too ambiguous to keep. It's clearly heinous enough by horror standards, but since it only talks in a single deleted scene there's no way to tell if it's compelled by nature. A third movie is apparently in Development Hell, so it might be cleared up in the future.
I'll trust Beast's evaluation of Eckberg. Nova looks like a clear wait and see case. I'll need more information on Ammut and House of Anubis in general before actually making a decision on her. What is the general tone of the show, and what do other villains do? How strongly is it implied that Ammut brainwashed Smythe? Does Ammut need to feed on souls to survive or not? How is moral agency handled? If her plan doesn't extend beyond feeding on souls (which is the impression I'm getting here) it becomes pretty shaky if she's really acting beyond her nature.
For Manse, do he and Martin care about each other or not? Is his prior destruction of most of his hometown Offstage Villainy? Do they set fires with clear intent to kill? Is he definitely more heinous than his brother, or would they qualify as a pair if they do meet the criteria?
edited 6th Jan '15 2:52:49 AM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"I talked to Snailfish, and according to him Manse never loved his brother. I have no idea if he meets the heinous standard, though.
So should Monster.Cartoon Network go since hardly any of the series listed share the same universe?
edited 6th Jan '15 4:54:04 AM by AustinDR
House of Anubis is one of Nick's Darker and Edgier shows. Like Every Witch Way it's more dramadic and has emotionally driven plotlines - it's primary genre is mystery/thriller and supernatural/adventure. Pretty much all of it's villains are in the Knight of Cerebus zone. I personally give Ammut a
, despite already three tropers giving her a
, considering her mythos counterpart is a pretty much a Generic Doomsday Villain, being a symbol of damnnation. As for Moral Agency, apparently that's not a problem to Egyptian Gods as Egyptian Myths have a CM in Apophis, who was a deity himself.
I'm not sure if she needs souls to survive, it's just that she needed the first five to manifest on Earth, and asks for more when she does. As for her role in Smythe's corruption - Smythe was considered the Big Good before his introduction and was thought long dead, before it was revealed to be in a supernatural coma that kept him youthful. The main implication was that he awoken Brainwashed and Crazy, and devoted to Ammut.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."Well, Shaoken provided a reason for the Cartoon Network page here
.
Okay, let me just knock two off (also, should we remove Boorman from the main TV page?):
- The Toadman Saga: Keith "Toadman" Lesler was a (literally) Ax-Crazy serial killer who was executed
for murdering dozens of children. On the brink of death, the Shadowbeast offers him the opportunity to return every 30 years. In the first part
he targets Abram Linfeld, beheading his two friends Donny and Angie and tying them to his waist. He then attacks Abram chopping off his leg; he only survives thanks to a crate of fireworks. In the second part
a policeman, Tyler Smith, comes to investigate the murders. When he and local beat cop Doyle Wheeler head down to the mine shaft, Doyle, under the influence of the Shadowbeast, attacks Tyler. When this fails The Toadman beheads Doyle, and then forces Tyler to free the Shadowbeast.
- Legion of Super-Heroes: Silver Age foe The Controller wasn't one to let morality get in the way of his plans for universal conquest. Abandoning his highly advanced race, The Controller decided to use his superweapon, the Sun-Eater, to obliterate every inhabited system in the Milky Way, starting with Earth's sun, Sol. When Ferro Lad's heroic sacrifice destroyed the Sun-Eater, The Controller attempted to brainwash the Legion into becoming his new army, then sought to murder them all when that plan failed. Convinced of his own innate superiority, and willing to wipe out an inhabited galaxy just to send the a message, The Controller would let nothing stand in his path of becoming the universe's Dimension Lord.
TO DO (Am I forgetting any?):
edited 6th Jan '15 2:56:10 PM by ACW
@ Camberf, A few pages back, you asked me to go through the Pony POV Series examples since the ymmv page and fanworks page are very different, and we agreed long ago to do re writes. Here are my two bits:
- Discord: There are actually two Discords: The reharmonised one and the one from Dark world. The one from Dark World does not count do to redemption. The Reharmonised one has a lot of crimes to him, and has shown no signes of redemption, but the fanfic is on it's lasts story arc, and he's the Final Boss. We should probably wait until the end in case of a last second Heel–Face Turn. Unfourtunately, the last arc will probably take months to finish. We may have to wait for quite a whiloe (like a year or so at most). If he remains a keeper, his entry needs to be re written to only focus on his crimes in the reharmonised timeline.
- Angry Pie: My only problem with her is she's such a small fry compared to the likes of the Big Bads.
- Loneliness: Cut, she's too ambiguous.
- Grogar: Cut, Discord has a way higher rap sheet.
- Pegasus Despot: Keep, he's the only villain in the fanfic (so far and unlikely to change) who is guilty of rape.
- The Valeyard: Cut, Nightmare Eclipse is way worse.
- Nightmare Eclipse/ the Nameless Passenger: Cut, she and her five Co-Dragons are friends.
- Makarov: Re write and keep.
- Kabuto: Keep, he's the only pure evil changeling with no redeeming qualities. I will do a write up detailing his crimes later and let you guys vote on it.
@camberf, No. This Angry Pie is a Split Personality that tries to take over Pinkie and go on a bloody rampage throughout Ponyvill. She kills the other split personalities inside Pinkie to try and take over. Essentially, she was going to Kill and Replace Pinkie and than (most likely considering her violent personality) go on a rampage killing everyone.
edited 6th Jan '15 4:00:05 PM by bobg
jjj@ ACW, it's not a darkfic, it just has really, really, really, dark villains. It has way too many funny and Heartwarming moments to be a darkfic. It's pretty lighthearted unless the bad guys are around. its bassicly Cerrebus Rollercoaster. Angry Pie is a god example of this: her chapter starts off in typical pinkie pie fashon... than she shows up.
Angry Pie is a Split{ersonality representing all of Pinkies anger, when Pinkie enters her own body (It Makes Sense in Context), Angry Pie tries to kill her and all the other split personalities so she can take over. You could argue she's Made of Evil, but it's really "Made Of Rage". That, and she has a sadistic personality all her own that makes it clear she kills partly for fun in addition to out of rape, also, there are many ways to vent your anger besides killing so I doubt this affects her moral agency.
edited 6th Jan '15 4:23:45 PM by bobg
jjjIn my opinion people trying to do "serious" epic fantasy with FiM is about as stupid as pony darkfic, but yeah, they're only the same thing inasmuch as like 80 percent of all fiction is darker than the show.
And anyway, regardless of how stupid one thinks it is, the examples still need to be held to a standard. I'll look at them later on.
@ Nrxjll, okay well than I will try to explain it to you the best I can.
Angry Pie is a Split Personality representing Pinkie's anger. Pinkie meets her when she falls asleep and goes inside her mind in a dream (just go with it its Pinkie Pie). Pinkie meets Angry Pie and Angry Pie decides to kill all of Pinkies other Split personalities and than Pinkie herself so she can take over and replace Pinkie pie and kill all of her friends in the real world. Angry Pie murders a number of other split personalities and comes close to taking over, but Pinkie merges with the surviving split personalities and gains the strength to defeat her.
Pinkie Than wakes up and is "whole". Meaning that she is now more intelligent and slightly more matue but still the same. She tells her friends about this, who are a bit surprised but just go with it.
Anyway, Angry Pie clearly has some moral agency considering her sadism and such, which goes beyond just acting out in rage. She's clearly too intelligent to be blinded by her anger, meaning she is not completely incapable of moral choices.
edited 6th Jan '15 4:44:42 PM by bobg
jjj
