During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
@Morganthaler - Yuma's parents being killed in front of her isn't dwelled upon as much as it explains why Pagan's father adopted her.
As for the resistance against him - the Golden Path's initial motives to fight Pagan was because he severed many of Kyrat's old religious traditions to modernize it.
Here's one of the games deconstructions from it's page
- Far Cry 4 also takes time to savage the idea of clearly defined Black and White Morality in war. While Pagan Min runs a authoritarian narco-state and violently oppresses the population of Kyrat, he tried to bring some order (although such efforts were intended to eliminate those hampering the development of his heroin fields) to a country which had suffered an 80 year civil war before he even arrived and was allegedly on the verge of phasing out the violence his army utilized and negotiating a peace settlement with the forces opposed to him at the gradual prompting of Ishwara Ghale, his lover. The Golden Path on the other hand, claim to fight for a free Kyrat but their two leaders bicker constantly and ultimately try convince the player to murder their rival for control of the golden path, their founder was fine with murdering the infant daughter of Pagan Min and whatever vision ultimately wins out in the faction fight is no better or a whole lot worse than the current situation.
Then there are the two leader of the Golden Path - Amita and Sabal. Amita wishes to continue the modernization of Kyrat, take control of Pagan's heroine fields and run Kyrat in a communist system. Sabal wants to return Kyrat to it's old time traditons, and has a Frollo like "wrath of God" mindset. Both have valid arguments against eachother - Amita argues that Sabal's leadership will result in people being religiously oppressed and little girls to be married off at as young as six - Sabal argues that Amita will be just another Pagan, in a country where "everyone is free to be a slave" with drugs fields as far as the eye can see. There's also the treatment of Bahdra, an innocent teenage girl who is caught up in the conflict - Amita will try to teach Bahdra to be a fighter to protect herself, while Sabal wants to keep her naĂŻve, to make her a religious symbol and believes her to be the reincarnation of Tarun Matara, the bride of Kyrat's top god Banashur. Should the player choose either of them as leader of the golden path we are treated to two different post credits scenes.
Amita - has taken control of Pagan's drug fields and we see her leading her men through a village taking children from their families to be forcibly recruited to the golden path to fight the last of Pagan's armies. She mentions she has Bahdra "sent away", so make of that what you will.
Sabal - has made Bahdra the new Tarun Matara, having her sit on a throne and watch as he executes people. Sabal has ordered the killings of members of the Golden Path who where loyal to Amita, and any Kyrat civilian who turned away from their traditional religions, which during Pagan's regime, ammounts to a majority of Kyrat, declaring that there must be a cleansing of blood.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."I'll submit these and Whitehall Monday morning.
Slight tweak for Shogun:
- Ginga Densetsu Weed: Shōgun from the manga, the (literally) Ax-Crazy ruler of the monkeys and apes, is a vicious tyrant who will kill anyone and anything that gets in his way, or even if it's simply in the area to vent frustration on. However, what sets Shogun apart are his eating habits. When he's hungry, he just wrenches a baby out of the arms of its mother and takes it to his private lair to devour. He particularly enjoys drinking a mix of puppy blood and liquor.
- Red Mage Fiore DeRosa is the leader of the Bloodrose leigon division of the Eternian forces, and is responsible for almost everything wrong with the Florem region. He has his lieutenants butcher creatures considered sacred to the people of Florem to produce beauty products that are either poisonous, or awaken selfish and murderous emotions in the user. Meanwhile, DeRosa himself uses the leftovers from production to create a love potion cologne, which he takes out on the town to brainwash women, partly to extract more ingredients for his love potion, and partly for fun. He also works with Qada.
- Qada the Salve-Maker is supposed to be the chief medic for the Eternian Black Blades division. What he actually is could be classified as something else entirely. The party first hears of him through ghosts: victims of his diabocial "purple mist," a poison gas that slaughtered over 10,000 men and ruined the land itself. The only survivor was Qada. Although Qada's superior has it sealed away, Qada plans to go behind his back to create an even more powerful poison, using the men under his care for his experiments. If Qada is defeated at the right time, he reveals plans to leave the Black Blades, earn his fortune as a chemical weapons dealer, and then return to slaughter everyone, regardless of alignment. Before the events of the game, Qada and DeRosa worked together with with the amoral Jerkass Profiteur to commit war crimes and loot war victims. During one specific world in the game's groundhog day loops, they plot together to unleash one of Qada's plagues to kill off key leaders in Eternia, and then provide a cure to the survivors to earn themselves leadership of the land. It really says something when, given the option of being remembered as a great hero or a diabolical madman, Qada has no idea which he'd prefer.
edited 13th Dec '14 1:56:46 PM by ACW
Deleted this under YMMV.Dragon Age Inquisition for being added without discussion.
- Complete Monster: The Elder One (who probably doesn't count himself, being more of an actual monster) has many servants the Inquisition has to deal with, but most of them have at least some extenuating circumstances—if not entirely humanizing ones, like Alexius' Adult Fear, then at least being brainwashed through blood magic or Red Lyrium. And then there is Livius Erimond, the Smug Snake who orchestrates the sickest perversion of the Grey Warden ideals ever imaginable—all of his own free will, desire for power, and hope to rise at the Elder One's side. If you've played Origins, your main regret after finally catching him will be that you can't consign him to a fate worse than death (or Tranquility, if you're a mage).
I just realized that I forgot to do an Elder One write up. He got a lot of upvotes when I proposed him a few weeks ago. I'll have a write-up done later today.
to Erimond. He fails the heinous standard as the Elder One is far worse than him. The Elder One was also the one who ordered for Erimond to commit his crimes.
Two things:
- Can I add this quote
to Stephen King?
- After remebering the discussion, abnd then searching page by page to find the work: Lighty, care to bring up the slaver from
Valiant?
@ 33210 Irene, I agree, in both of the episodes in question, it seems to be stated that the original Grundel is a completely supernatural creature and was never human. The Grundel is portrayed as a victimizer, not a victim and all the other Grundels are created through his works and thus their crimes are on his head.
I’d like to nominate Mundus from Devil May Cry as a CM. I know he was listed in the YMMV section as a CM, but the description was just so barebones and he was taken out, and rightly so. However, I feel this guy deserves a place on the page. Spoiler Warning, though, you know, this game is over 13 years old, Statute of Limitations and all.
In a series that emphasises the sheer lack of tender emotions demons have, such as love, sorrow and the like, Mundus, the Big Bad of the first Devil May Cry game stands out for having no redeeming qualities even amongst his own kind. Unsatisfied with ruling the Underworld, Mundus sought to conquer the human world as well, an act that caused the Legendary Dark Knight Sparda to pull a Heel–Face Turn, unable to condone such cruelty against a species he felt sympathy for. Defeated, he spent two millennia sealed away, but it’s when he returned that he really showed just how awful he was. Hunting down Sparda’s family to make sure no one could ever become strong enough to oppose him again, he murdered Eva, Dante and Vergil’s mother. She was able to save her sons, but this action ruined the lives of two young boys and instigated Vergil’s Start of Darkness. Years later, Mundus showed just how much of a Dirty Coward he is by attacking Vergil after he was gravely wounded by Dante. Not content to simply kill him, he brainwashed and corrupted Vergil into the Dark Knight Nelo Angelo to use as a weapon against Dante. In order to lead Dante into a trap, Mundus created Trish in the image of Eva, sending her to pretend to ask for Dante’s help so he could lure him to his Evil Lair on Malet Island in the hopes of his minions killing him. His biggest Kick the Dog moment came when Griffon, who had been shown up to this point as being completely loyal to Mundus, is wounded by Dante and impaled under a huge column. Desperate, Griffon asked Mundus for a surge of power so that he could continue fighting, even despite Dante’s protests. In thanks, Mundus obliterates Griffon for being beaten by Dante, laughing afterwards. As Dante finally reaches Mundus’ throne, the Prince of Darkness still refuses to fight him fairly, using Trish as blackmail: resist and she dies. Trish manages to save Dante at the cost of her own life, Mundus declaring her Heroic Sacrifice as “odd” behaviour for a demon. Even after his fight with Dante and the collapsing of Malet Island, Mundus attempts to pull a Taking You with Me on Dante in the hopes of ending the Sparda bloodline once and for all. Greedy, cruel and having no regard for any of his minions, Mundus was and continues to be the standard of evil that all other demons are compared to. The series’ Arc Words “Devils Never Cry” apply to this demonic god all too well.
When it comes to editing on the site, I tend to have trouble, so I apologise if this isn’t great to read. Arkham is probably worse, since he started out as a human, so that might influence whether or not Mundus is considered bad enough. I think he is, but it’s not up to me.
My potential issue with Mundus is that most of his rap sheet is offscreen; the only stuff we actually get to see him do is the Trish-related dickery, the Gryphon thing, and trying to kill Dante.
Then again, I haven't played the first DMC and it's been years since I watched a playthrough, so I might be misremembering.
Also: remember Jerjerrod? I found this on the Bad Boss page, which conflicts pretty heavily with his writeup here:
- In deleted scenes for Return of the Jedi (which were also kept in the Novelization), he also orders Moff Jerjerrod to fire the superlaser at Endor in the event that the Rebel Alliance somehow managed to successfully destroy the shield generator. Jerjerrod is shown to be reluctant to carry out this order, obviously because of the presence of several of their troops. Palpatine, however, tells him that he will fire the superlaser at Endor, making it perfectly clear to Jerjerrod (and to the audience) that Palpatine doesn't even care about his own troops being killed in the blast.
edited 13th Dec '14 2:30:57 PM by KyleJacobs
@The Overlord: Honestly, the only thing I worry about is if The Grundel is Made of Evil. But nothing suggests that regardless, as the Ghosts and various Monsters have been consistently shown to be capable of morals. Many turn good or otherwise ask the Ghostbusters for help. Hell, even a Vampire has asked them for help at one time. It's strange.
Extreme Ghostbusters seems different, though, as there might be a few who could apply for that particular trope. That said, I agree he doesn't show any signs of being manipulated, and is just a manipulator himself.
Shadow?So is Off Screen Villainy a disqualifier for this trope?
I figured as much, I'm curious as to why though? is it because of Informed Attribute/Informed Flaw? Becuase any offscrren claims could be potentially disproven? Or does it just need the Moral Event Horizon to be onscreen?
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Unless we see the aftermath or what have you, then yeah (although, for a Serial Killer, we only need to see one victim).
Their acts can be off screen, but not if we see the aftermath and/or buildup - like the body or a murder victim or rapist preparing their victim or if photos or sound of the act is heard - not sure about reinactments though.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."![]()
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My understanding is it's mostly an Informed Attribute thing.
Also, went to Wookiepedia for info on Jerjerrod. From looking at what's cited where, it seems like the the novel attributes entirely different motives to his actions than the guy playing him did.
Citing the film:
As the battle progressed, the Emperor gave Jerjerrod one final order—should the shield generator be neutralized, the Moff was to turn the Death Star on Endor and obliterate the moon. Though Palpatine did not share the Moff's concern for the Imperial troops present on the moon, Jerjerrod acknowledged the command.[18] Ultimately, the Alliance strike team on Endor succeeded in destroying the generating station, bringing down the deflector shield that protected the Death Star from a direct assault.[3] Lieutenant Endicott brought word of the development to Jerjerrod, adding that contact with the bunker on Endor had been lost. Recalling the Emperor's edict, the Moff reluctantly gave the order for the Death Star to fire on the moon as the station began rotating to acquire its new target.[21]
Citing the novelization:
Assuming this is accurate, objection withdrawn.
Back to Mundus, I just realized that even if you limit your scope to what he does onscreen, he still has a higher body count than Arkham, so objection withdrawn. This is what happens when there are only three or four characters per game, up to and including random civilian extras and the lack thereof.
edited 13th Dec '14 3:03:46 PM by KyleJacobs
@Kyle Jacobs It's true a lot of Mundus' crimes are offscreen. (maybe we'll see more of what he did in a future game? Maybe) I think we can all agree he's a lot worse than other demons. Indeed, the series makes an effort to show that most demons have some redeeming quality, such as Griffon's loyalty in the first game, Cerberus, Agni, Rudra and Nevan's Graceful Loser statuses and affability in the third game along with Beowulf's misplaced sense of honour, Echidna's love for her children in the fourth game and a few other examples I'm probably neglecting.
Also, I wouldn't consider what he did to Vergil to be offscreen. While my calling him a Dirty Coward when he attacks him may be conjecture (though it would be in character), we see what Vergil has become thanks to Mundus: Brainwashed, suffering, forced to serve the demon that took everything from him. Though I suppose that's a borderline case. We don't see the action, but we see the consequences.
EDIT: Oh, yeah, I don't think we see Arkham actually kill anyone. I mean, he attempts it. Unless I'm forgetting someone.
edited 13th Dec '14 3:07:16 PM by PolarPhantom

EEHLO is now readded for Hougen.
ready to be submitted?
Is Whitehall