Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

She is a reliable source. Believe it or not, the characters aren't just one-dimensional parodies of their source material, but fully fleshed out three-dimensional characters that you can love or hate as people. The Ginyu Force all care about each other (except Guldo) and it's actually pretty sad when they die, especially when Ginyu wants a moment to mourn them, but Vegeta doesn't give him that moment. On the grounds of Freeza, he's far more hateable and terrifying than the original Frieza specifically because he's more fleshed out as a character.

And go easy on CQ. I know I insulted her earlier, but she's really trying to get the hang of this.

Sorry, but I had to ask, particularly in light of the Nightmare Fuel pothole.

All things considered I would vote against anyone in the abridged series to be a CM, since they don't really do anything unbelievably henious in the series and at no point have I ever felt anything beyond mild-creepiness coming from Freeza.

Agreed. Just because DBZ Abridged can't figure out how to competently do Dead Baby Comedy or Black Comedy doesn't mean that the characters are C Ms. It means that the humour is poorly executed.

This forum isn't about bashing shows, so please don't go there.

Okay Shaoken, if abridged characters can't be Cm's then let's discuss The Yugioh Abridged series.

Complete Monster: Melvin. Bakura explicitly calls him "the most evil character on the show." Played for Laughs of course.

Possibly the Satanic Teddy Bear. Being a demon though, this is to be expected.

Yeah, Shaoken, looking at Yugioh abridged, your reasoning makes a lot of sense to me. The Teddy Bear is creepy and says weird things, but does he do anything? As Far as I can tell, not really. Also, no possibly's should be used.

Melvin: Well, the description says he's played for laughs (We all know what the CM page says, so explaining it is just redundant), even murdering his father (Kick The Son Of A Bitch) was played with him singing a poor song as he dies. His conflict with doors, and his desire to give everyone hugs (which is kinda threatening) make him even harder to take seriously. Even his attempted Murder of Odion has him musing over a fluffed pillow. When he puts on his nightmare face he starts wondering what's happening to him.

His master plan involves canceling the show.

All in all, I agree with you.

edited 15th Sep '12 6:01:56 PM by DrPsyche

I don't think anyone was saying it's impossible for any Abridged Series character, anywhere, to be a Complete Monster (though those specific examples are certainly incorrect).

I'm also not trying to say that either. That's why I said:

Looking at Yugioh abridged, your reasoning makes a lot of sense to me.

I'm just Talking about Yu Gi Oh Abridged (which, yeah those examples are bad), any other series, might have one (I don't know of any, but I've watched so few).

edited 15th Sep '12 6:11:10 PM by DrPsyche

Here's a quick question. What should we do with all the Wicks to Complete Monster within non-YMMV pages? I recall that, earlier in the thread, you guys wanted to make a point that it's not that common by removing some wicks. Well, with Complete Monster having thousands of wicks with some in objective pages, this might be tricky.

I have read What Goes Where On The Wiki so I understand the rules regarding YMMV pages. I might be new here, but I am willing to contribute to building a safe and stable environment.

Anybody have any points to make?

edited 15th Sep '12 6:40:11 PM by Slimbship4

@3259 I don't think we ever discussed that... I think we might have to take it on a case-by-case basis. It doesn't help that there are probably plenty of stray examples where they've been removed from the Complete Monster and appropriate YMMV pages, but are potholed to Complete Monster in descriptions of those characters in other tropes.

At the very least, if the link is to a character that isn't listed as a Complete Monster, remove said link.

Wicks to CM should be removed whenever found, unless they are on a YMMV page or are [invoked] / In-Universe.

edited 15th Sep '12 8:15:44 PM by Fighteer

Wicks are pretty easy to find. Edit page, and then use the find: For my Mac it's just [Command] [F] and type Completem, and boom I've got a use of the trope, Pothole and all

Got it. I'll take care of them when possible. You can assist if you'd like.

@3261 Well, considering that we disallow any attempts to have this be either an Invoked Trope or In-Universe (You Monster! is for the latter; I don't think we have ever bothered with the former), I'd argue that even those two should have their wicks removed.

Hello everyone, Tropemasterx2 here. I have several characters i want to discuss. They are all my candidates for potential removal.

Grim Reaper from Avengers Earths Mightiest Heroes, who is listed as CM in HYDRA YMMV page:

• Complete Monster: The best example is when AIM is about transform his brother into Wonder Man. MODOC warns him that no one has survived the process. Reaper's response?
• brief smile* That's life..

While Grim Repear says some rather sadistic things ("Finally, someone to hurt", when he encounters The Avengers in the episode "Panther's Quest", along with "that's life" line), he doesn't do anything heinous on-screen. All he did was being a Bad Ass fighter and saying sadistic things. Reaper didn't go around the city and murder innocent people with a Slasher Smile, nor did he torture good guys in gruesome ways. He is just particularly sadistic supervillain, but not CM.

The Hand from Marvel:

• The Hand is a cult of monstrous ninjas whose leader is a literal demon called the Beast. They also have a bad habit of resurrecting other Complete Monsters to recruit them, like Sabretooth, or worse, resurrecting good people and turning them into monsters via magic and Mind Rape.

The Hand violates "no groups" rule.

Cutler Beckett's soldiers from Pirates Of The Caribbean:

• Arguably, by extension, every officer and soldier who thought that hanging a child was an acceptable act. The films are made for modern audiences, after all. When Beckett hung all those children, we're clearly meant to think of it as objectively wrong, not as Values Dissonance.

Hanging a child is incredibly despicable action and a Moral Event Horizon on Beckett's part, but we can't label every officer and soldier as complete monsters. As far as i know, they might have been disgusted by Beckett's actions but didn't do anything to stop them out of fear of Beckett.

The Huntsclan and The Huntsman from American Dragon Jake Long:

• The Huntsclan, (well, most of them). How does the huntsclan academy deal with students who break the rules? Detention? Demerits? No, send them into a gladiator pit in a fight to the death with a deadly monster! What's more, they hunt magical creatures for no reason other than Fantastic Racism! Their eventual goal is to destroy all magical beings on Earth. Yes, their goal is to commit genocide! On a kids' show, no less! This is a society that, in real life, would be considered the equivalent of Nazis. If that doesn't qualify them for Complete Monster status, I'd hate to see what does.

• The Huntsman is the worst of them all, seeing as he is their leader. He kidnapped Rose at birth and is quite possibly the one who personally brainwashed her into believing in the Huntsclan way of life. As Rose's abduction means that this is probably the way that all Huntsclan members are recruited, this possibly gives him somewhat of a Freudian Excuse. However, seeing as his hatred has consumed him to the point where he has continued to kidnap infants from their parents despite knowing that he himself was kidnapped, he could be considered even more of a monster. The Huntsman has also killed a magical creature onscreen and, of course, who could forget that when he found out about Rose's Heel Face Turn, he threatened to kill her parents if she refused to help him acquire the means to kill every single magical creature on the face of the Earth.

"No groups rule", again. Also the Huntsman's entry says that people who are the members of the Huntsclan are kidnapped from their parents at birth and brainwashed into serving the Hunstman, thus giving them Freudian Excuse. The only one who seems to qualify for CM status is the Huntsman.

The Terminal/ Carter, the member of The Jokerz and is labeled as CM in Batman Beyond YMMV page:

• There's also Carter, who rivals Chappell for the most conceited Jerkass prick in the series. Being hailed as a model student, popular, and a start member of the school's football team wasn't enough for him. Sure, his mother seems to push him to do the impossible in terms of academic excellence (albeit we're never given any indication that she has any problems aside from near-impossibly high standards), but that still doesn't explain why he also has to torment people as a member of the Jokerz. And to say that he overreacted to his being second-best and getting mildly scolded by his mother as a result would be the understatement of the century. To elaborate, this kid vandalizes his entire school, attempts to wipe test scores that some students' futures may be riding on, nearly ruins one student's position as valedictorian (and possibly would have gone as far as to put her on the bottom tier), and resorts to COLD-BLOODED MURDER when he finds out that he can't ruin her academic record!

Is Carter/ The Terminal really that bad, escpecially compared to Derek Powers/ Blight. Yes what he did was bad, but not CM material. From YMMV page the only ones who seem to qualify are Blight and possibly The Kobra leader from "Unmasked".

@Tropemasterx2: I agree with all those changes. The worst of those examples is the Pirates one, where every officer is condemned to CM status. No Groups, and we don't even know their reactions, just Beckett's, they may have opposed it, they may have supported it, there are no details.

Avengers earths mightiest heroes should be cleaned up as well.

Grim Reaper: He did kill several shield Agents (I think, there's a slashing sound and a hit flash, and then the guys are down, but does that count as a kill?), but killing Good guy mooks is kinda standard villain fair. Leading his brother into a potentially dangerous experiment is bad, maybe even a Moral Event Horizon, but doesn't make him a CM. He's just a Psycho for Hire

Surtur: I don't know, he more fits the Generic Doomsday Villain. He commits genocide against the Dwarves (off screen by the way), and Beta Ray Bill's race (His monsters were shown attacking the planet, and Bill mentions that he and his ship are all that are left). And he brain washes Amora, so yeah, he's bad, but Is he too generic?

Red Skull: He might be the only example I'd decide to keep. He kidnaps several mystical creatures and plans to use them to kill the Allies. He captures Bucky (Who might be younger than 18 I think, as of that point) and brainwashes/tortures him into becoming the Winter Soldier. Winter Soldier fights countless wars, killing several shield agents and makes Fury lose his eye. Skull also unleashes a chemical on numerous civilians and Heroes to die a slow painful death, with their skin receding and looking like his face.

Baron Zemo: Jerkass Nazi and Badboss (leaving Crimson Dynamo to die), I don't think he's CM material though.

General Ross Red Hulk: Endangers civilians, and tries to kill Banner. Capturing him and wearing a Shit-eating Grin all the way. Banner is also subjected to sonic torture to drive him crazy, rampage with the intention of causing destruction/harm all to make The General look better. Bad yes, Unintentionally funny, kinda, but CM material? I don't think so. Maybe he was chose because people don't like his comics counterpart... that's a big maybe though, I have no real idea.

Skrull!Captain America: He does tons of bad stuff. Turning on Zemo, capturing the original Captain America to be tortured. Turning in Banner. Disrupting Kree Earth relations too early, and tons of other stuff (most involving infiltration protocol). However he does all this under orders from his queen whom he is loyal to, and is a Well-Intentioned Extremist, trying to get his race a new planet.

In short, Cut all but Red skull and Possibly Surtur.

edited 15th Sep '12 10:58:56 PM by DrPsyche

Thanks for bringing the Avengers ones up, meant to post them at some point. I pretty much agree with what you've posted so far.

RE Ross and the whole Red Hulk thing, he's presented as very pathetic, weak-willed, and yes, despicable. Hulk in the series is a near Genius Bruiser and under control, so Ross doesn't really have the excuse here that he does in other continuities, where the Hulk is legitimately a danger to others. There also is a scene where as Red Hulk, basically for no reason but being a dick he tells Captain America that a good soldier needs to allow for civilian casualties, and he throws a boat with people on it at Cap.

Edit- Ross/Red Hulk has the same issues as Norman Osborne/Green Goblin in terms of the civilian identity's culpability. I think it is implied that Red Hulk and Ross are more the same person than Hulk and Banner are, but I don't think they are quite one in the same.

I think the Red Skull should probably count. Not sure about Zemo. He has the necessary in-universe hatred but not sure if he does enough evil actions on screen to qualify (he is once shown to be totally indifferent to using a device that if it didn't work would wipe out all life on earth).

RE Surtur, I think the problem with him is that while he is a good example in terms of on-screen and spoken of actions, he's basically the God of Evil and doesn't really have a backstory indicating if he was ever/could have ever been anything but that.

edited 15th Sep '12 11:20:24 PM by Jordan

Am I the only one who thinks that the Complete Monster entry of Pokemon needs a clean up? Seriously,it's like Ghetsis owns this page! That Addendum folder on the same page needs to be deleted. It's unnecessary. It reminds me that good ol' Desil's entry.

edited 15th Sep '12 11:31:20 PM by flamemario12

Hmm... yeah, quite a lot of us did actually say that Ghetsis should be canned since we've discussed this quite a few times...

Personally, by way of the examples being discussed, I still think that along with most examples from both the anime and the games being removed for not meeting guidelines, the two pages should be merged with the anime page redirecting to Monster.Pokemon, if we are to keep at least three overall examples that is.

edited 15th Sep '12 11:35:32 PM by EarlOfSandvich

Re: Pokemon - I've now had a chance to look at the page (the video game one, that is) more thoroughly, and I'm sticking with my initial impression. None of them count except Darkrai and Purple Eyes.

Alright, tossing this up in the air to see what you guys think. From Kamen Rider Wizard

The Phantoms seem to be a race of these. They're demons with the expressed goal of driving humanity over the Despair Event Horizon.

How does that work with respect to "Complete Monster cannot be a group?"

I think that means Always Chaotic Evil doesn't it?

Do they qualify for Always Chaotic Evil?

Not exactly sure. Wasn't my writing. I'll edit it out.

As for Always Chaotic Evil, considering Kamen Rider's recent reputation, there's rarely any good monsters nowadays, and the few that are get quickly killed before they go through with being a good guy, save for one case. I might risk it to say they might just be ACE.

edited 16th Sep '12 10:37:22 AM by Psyga315